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| Will Peter ever save Caitlin? |
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[ 5 ] |
| No |
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78% |
[ 18 ] |
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| Total Votes : 23 |
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pjamese3
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 Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| Ambience 327 wrote: |
| Oh - another thing (curse the lack of an edit button!). We still aren't completely clear on how the show is treating time travel in the first place. In Back to the Future Part 2, Doc theorizes (and is later proven correct) that if he and Marty go back to 1955 and steal back the Sports Almanac from Biff, that Jennifer and Einstein (left in the alternate 1985) won't suffer any ill effects from the timeline change, and will instead wake up from it thinking it was a bad dream. |
With all the Asimov, Heinlein and other hard science fiction out there, you're basing your argument on Back to the Future? With the fading photos and "bad dreams?) 
| Ambience 327 wrote: |
So it is possible that Peter has prevented the virus from causing the 93% future, and now Caitlin is just a short year away - and he can find her later without having to travel through time. |
She wouldn't be there. She's a year in the future in either an alternate reality (where she can't be reached - unless TPTB decide Peter can cross realities by wishing to be with someone...and clicking his heels together 3 times  ) or she was erased with the future that Peter erased by stopping the virus. |
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pjamese3
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| Blufyre77 wrote: |
I guess some people (not saying any names, Squeaker Wink ) did not quite understand my point though (and a lot of it is my fault). I was saying that, yes, Caitlin is gone in this future (aka future c), but Peter can actually go back to where Caitlin is in future b by removing himself from this year's events (since his travel forward and absence from 2007 made future b occur in the first place). He could do this by going back in time and then going with himself to future b (since it is not changed to future c until Peter gets back and is reintroduced to Adam.) Part of the difficulty would be getting out of future b before past Peter travels back and eliminates it while not affecting past Peter's decisions that make future c (that whole rule about not affecting your past self because then the future you return to would be different). Peter would obviously have to consult Hiro about this, as he would not be able to figure that out by himself, and that would also make interesting scenes between Hiro and Peter. My original theory dealt with all of this, but it was not that easy to understand (because I tend to write things that only I would really best understand). The main difficulty of doing this on the show would be getting almost everyone to understand it adequately enough to follow the plot, as it does take at least some real thinking, but I think that is part of what the second season lacked.
Hope that cleared some of it up. |
Finally!! Someone who understands time travel theory. It's pretty straightforward. So much so that dumbass Peter probably won't think of it: As you said, all Peter has to do is go back in time to just before Peter1 and Caitlan went to the future. He stays invisible while he's there; waits until Peter1 goes back in time and then reappears and takes Caitlan back to when Peter1 reappears (but a different where.) Caitlan's back. Of course, she needs to be kept well away from Peter and any events around him until after he stops the virus. Easy enough. The where would be back in Ireland. It would be best if Peter convinced her to wait for him there and went back to right after he went back in time to make things right for her. That way, he'd be sure to appear right after he disappeared. It would almost be a loop, but since the end point is after he time travels, everything would go on normally. All Peter would have to do then is teleport back to Ireland and find Caitlan. |
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wolves_arsenal
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| iknow this might sound a bit toological......but could he not just go back in time to just before they go into the future and stop himself from taking her there???? |
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pjamese3
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| wolves_arsenal wrote: |
| iknow this might sound a bit toological......but could he not just go back in time to just before they go into the future and stop himself from taking her there???? |
Not too logical...too simplistic. If Peter did that he'd just open a whole can of worms. Caitlan would be safe, true. But the very act of preventing himself from going forward (or taking her) would start changing events. He might warn himself about Adam and end up not being at the right place at just the right time. He might not go to the future at all. And, of course, there would be the problem of now having two Peters walking around at the same time.
Once you change events in your past, you start changing everything. Remember, a large number of events happened to different characters to have Peter end up barely being able to catch the vial before it shattered on the floor and released the virus. |
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Ambience 327
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| pjamese3 wrote: |
| Ambience 327 wrote: |
| Oh - another thing (curse the lack of an edit button!). We still aren't completely clear on how the show is treating time travel in the first place. In Back to the Future Part 2, Doc theorizes (and is later proven correct) that if he and Marty go back to 1955 and steal back the Sports Almanac from Biff, that Jennifer and Einstein (left in the alternate 1985) won't suffer any ill effects from the timeline change, and will instead wake up from it thinking it was a bad dream. |
With all the Asimov, Heinlein and other hard science fiction out there, you're basing your argument on Back to the Future? With the fading photos and "bad dreams?)
| Ambience 327 wrote: |
So it is possible that Peter has prevented the virus from causing the 93% future, and now Caitlin is just a short year away - and he can find her later without having to travel through time. |
She wouldn't be there. She's a year in the future in either an alternate reality (where she can't be reached - unless TPTB decide Peter can cross realities by wishing to be with someone...and clicking his heels together 3 times ) or she was erased with the future that Peter erased by stopping the virus. |
I was merely posing a possibility. Due to the facts that...
a) ...time travel is theoretical at best...
b) ...this is a fictional story...
c) ...the rules of time travel in the heroes universe have not been completely explained...
...we can't be sure exactly how things will turn out. It is entirely possible that the "alternate reality" you describe is how things work. It is also possible that things would work out as I have suggested. Just because one theory (which is all you have to go by) of time travel says that she's unreachable, doesn't mean that this is true within the fiction of the heroes universe. |
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pjamese3
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| Ambience 327 wrote: |
She wouldn't be there. She's a year in the future in either an alternate reality (where she can't be reached - unless TPTB decide Peter can cross realities by wishing to be with someone...and clicking his heels together 3 times ) or she was erased with the future that Peter erased by stopping the virus. |
I was merely posing a possibility. Due to the facts that...
a) ...time travel is theoretical at best...
b) ...this is a fictional story...
c) ...the rules of time travel in the heroes universe have not been completely explained...
...we can't be sure exactly how things will turn out. It is entirely possible that the "alternate reality" you describe is how things work. It is also possible that things would work out as I have suggested. Just because one theory (which is all you have to go by) of time travel says that she's unreachable, doesn't mean that this is true within the fiction of the heroes universe.[/quote]
Understood. However:
a) While time travel is theoretical, so are a number of other theories in science. The two accepted theories are branching timelines and single reality. If you take a good look at either theory, you'll see why both of them would preclude Peter finding Caitlan a year in the future - directly. (Unless, of course, TPTB decide to screw logic and go for a sappy, emotional reunion. You know...the same kind of brainstorming that went into the ending of the remake of Planet of the Apes.)
b) Yes, it's a fictional story. But don't all great fictional stories (especially dramas...especially science fiction) have one thing in common: Adherence to internal logic. For example: Harry Potter's internal logic is that magic works; Star
Wars is that the Force works a certain way. Battlestar Galactica's space flight works a certain way. If Harry Potter starts doing spells without reciting; if Luke Skywalker starts flying around like Superman; if Colonial Vipers start maneuvering like X-wing fighters, the audience will collectively call BULL%$#!.
C) Nobody has sat down and explained them on the show or in the comic, but we have seen their effect. We saw the original future in FYG. New York destroyed; specials imprisoned or co-opted by the government. That future was changed by the Heroes at the end of season 1. In season 2, we saw a different future; a plague future. That was changed when the plague wasn't released. In both futures, different people would be alive and dead. Just because they were still around after New York was destroyed wouldn't mean they would still be alive in the new reality. Different events. FYG was either wiped out or shunted to an alternate reality. The same for the plague future. And Caitlan was now a part of that plague future.
Like it or not, Caitlan is toast. There are only two ways to get her back:
1) Peter (or Hiro) uses a circuitous method of teloporting and time traveling to follow his prior self and bring her back.
2) TPTB whip out a fading picture, put an ape head on the Lincoln Memorial and say, "Screw it. Let's get some sap from that tree." |
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Ambience 327
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:42 am Post subject: |
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Yes - we've seen a lot about how they handle time travel. Yes, they should keep an internally consistent logic. Yes, the future changed dramatically from what we saw in FYG and what we saw with Caitlin and Peter. I agree with these points wholeheartedly.
However, they have not shown us what happens to a person from the past who is left in a future that is then changed. It hasn't been done - so we don't have any clue what the internal logic of that particular event is due to one simple fact: no precedent.
As we don't know what happens to the future when it is changed (i.e. whether it continues on in its own parallel reality or if it is changed to fall in line with what has been altered), we cannot be certain of what would befall poor Caitlin when the switch happens.
Yes, if they decide that the different futures are parallel realities, then Caitlin would be stuck in one that would be quite difficult for Peter to get her out of. However, if the future molds itself into something different when a change happens in the past, then she could be:
A) Erased from existence.
B) Taken along for the ride, and unaware of the differences made in her situation - she would remember coming to the new future with Peter, not the old one.
C) Taken along for the ride, and fully aware that something is happening to change the world in which she now lives - suddenly lots of people who were dead are now alive, there is no quarantine, no curfew, etc. She might be able to do the 2+2=4 bit, or she might wonder what is going on.
You present strong arguments, but you fail to consider that while there are several leading theories of how time travel works, all of that has to take a back seat to what makes for a good story and keeps the audience from changing the channel and giving someone else the advertising revenue. |
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pjamese3
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| Ambience 327 wrote: |
| However, they have not shown us what happens to a person from the past who is left in a future that is then changed. It hasn't been done - so we don't have any clue what the internal logic of that particular event is due to one simple fact: no precedent. |
But the answer's right there if you follow the logic. What you need to do is stop thinking in terms of "this person came from here and that person came from then; she's from the past originally and he's from the future..."
Those are all just points of reference we attribute to the time traveller to make it easier for us to understand what's happening. In actuality, the only point of reference that matters is the time traveler's NOW. "Where and when am I now?" That decides what happens.
It doesn't matter that Caitlin is originally from the past. Now, she is 1 year in the future. Whatever Peter does to change the present (his future; her subjective past) will affect her just the same as it affects the plague survivors who've lived thru every day of that year she and Peter jumped around.
| Ambience 327 wrote: |
Yes, if they decide that the different futures are parallel realities, then Caitlin would be stuck in one that would be quite difficult for Peter to get her out of. However, if the future molds itself into something different when a change happens in the past, then she could be:
A) Erased from existence.
B) Taken along for the ride, and unaware of the differences made in her situation - she would remember coming to the new future with Peter, not the old one.
C) Taken along for the ride, and fully aware that something is happening to change the world in which she now lives - suddenly lots of people who were dead are now alive, there is no quarantine, no curfew, etc. She might be able to do the 2+2=4 bit, or she might wonder what is going on. |
And the answer is...A. (IMO)  The other two options are just the effects of Hollywood-poisoning. I'll buy off on someone remaining unchanged and remembering their past when the world changes around them if they are time traveling at the time, in a time vortex resultant to time travel or in a device that separates them from normal space/time. Otherwise, they're just nails in a board, waiting to get hammered down.
| Ambience 327 wrote: |
You present strong arguments, but you fail to consider that while there are several leading theories of how time travel works, all of that has to take a back seat to what makes for a good story and keeps the audience from changing the channel and giving someone else the advertising revenue. |
Not only have I considered it, but that's what I worry about. I have been into science fiction since I was a child. In my teens I transitioned mainly to "hard" science fiction (emphasis on logic, plausible technologies, verisimilitude.) I worry that our culture of feel good pablum, "reality" TV and young adults with little education and less of an attention span than my dog will doom this show to reach out to them and dumb down the scripts. A good story is both written well and remains plausible and internally consistent within its own reality.
Too often, good shows are flushed down the toilet due to scripting by focus group and worrying what the grandmother in Peoria thinks or if the 17yr old will stop channel surfing if they show the right amount of skin.
And when are they going to give Neilson ratings boxes to science fiction fans? It seems that great shows like Serenity (and non-SF like Drive and Profit) are given up on before they get any chance.
If we had the boxes, quality shows would rule and the era of reality TV would be over!  (Had to get that off my chest.)  |
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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I tend to agree, to a point..
One, Caitlin is gone. Finito. Done for, Finished, Toast, whatever metaphor you prefer, place it here..
Two: Peter going back to stop himself or Caitlin from going is a really REALLY stupid idea.
Three: TPTB should let this thread lie, and not go back to it, in fear oflosing even more viewers than they did in season 2!
My reasons? Well, for one and two, the answer is simple. Paradox.
Time travel is tricky to begin with. Not just in changing and altering timelines, but in changing and altering lives!
Here we go throwing about the ideas of someone just dropping in, seeing his past self, hold a simple conversation, stop himself, and have no consequences..
Sorry, not going to happen that way. Just too much of a poor cop-out IMO.
Caitlin's gone. She should stay that way. It will add more angst and anger to Peter's character, and make him less of a pansy, in my book. Leave the experience with him, and add more shadow and depth to one very weak character with some serious bad-arsed potential!
Now, the reason I say that TPTB should leave this alone is because of everything stated above. That, coupled with the bad taste that season 2 left in nearly everyone's mouth should cause them to re-think each and every episode that they put pen to paper over. I mean, they're seriously on the brink of losing TONS of viewers because of poor writing and scripting. If they were to try to go back and fix things like Season 1 episode 20, or all of season 2, they'd likely lose most fans, and kill off the series for the sake of explanation.
Leave the questions there! After all, some of the best parts of this show have been to leave things unanswered, and see how many minds go into overdrive trying to think up ways to explain it all! Leave them vague, let folks mull them over, but keep the artistic license to say "Because I said so, that's why" and leave it at that.
End of story. |
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popkorn615
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't read many posts in this topic yet because of lack of time on my part, but I most definitely agree with the poll's consensus that Caitlin is not coming back. The writers have realized that Season 2 flopped in comparison to Season 1, and reintroducing a 'love' story for Peter's character is utterly ridiculous IMO. The series has more important things to focus on in regards to Peter's character, and I think that the writers finally see that. There are a small handful of characters who could benefit from some kind of 'love' plotline, and I don't think Peter is in that small handful, nor will he be again for a long time. If anything, I think that the closest thing to love that we will see in Season 3 is the whole
adoption issue and whether there was a love triangle among certain members of The Company, or if one of our main two protagonists (i.e. Peter/Sylar) was created as a result of a 'maximum potential' experiment.
I'll try to go back and read some posts/ideas that you guys/gals have so cleverly written
Thoughts? |
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