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Blufyre77 · Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject:

The reason Hero couldn't save Charlie was that she had a brain aneurysm that was going to kill her soon, and when Hiro found out he accidentally teleported away and left her for Sylar. However, there were still plotholes in that scenario.
The thing is, the reason why we can figure out time travel is that we know where the inconsistencies are.There are always going to be inconsistencies with TV time travel simply because either some writers don't fully know how to handle it, or they know how but think it would negatively affect the plot. The # of TV shows that I've seen that handle time travel correctly are...0.There's no real reason that Heroes would be different, although I'd love it if they were.

If we try to explain away the inconsistencies we will get confused because they are impossible, but if we recognize those inconsistencies we can make it work.
soap

Jormengrund · Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject:

But it's not inconsistent!

It's Hiro's power, he can do with it as he pleases!

So if he can do something, he will, if he can't, then he'll abandon it.

Case closed. lol

Blufyre77 · Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:18 am Post subject:

Well, he has already done things he "can't do", like leaving the present completely unchanged after he messes with Adam in 1671. The original events had Kensei becoming a hero on his own (because there must have been a time Hiro wasn't there) and now Hiro has become the Hero( Smile

) and Adam is very, very pissed off. Leaving the past with a resentful person instead of a hero (especially an immortal resentful person) had to have an effect on the timeline, but it didn't. Also, Future Bad-ass Rebel Hiro in FYG could not actually exist in FYG because Hiro was not there for that five years because he time traveled through it. You cannot meet your future self unless he comes to you, because you traveling to the future results in you being gone between now and the future. Forgivable for the sake of good TV, definitely, but not to be used for the basis of theories or for Hiro's power. They are mistakes, not "Hiro doing whatever he pleases."

And I'm not sure if Jorm's post was sarcastic or not, so this post may have been completely irrelevant. Oh well.

Action Figure · Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:12 am Post subject:

Just wanna jump in and say that the reason Hiro couldnt save Charlie was that he cannot create a paradox for himself. Thus he cannot go back in time and change what he went back in time to do, or else he will have had no reason to travel back to begin with.

He didn't accidentally teleport away, or purposefully. His power is bigger than he is, and it forced him back to the present to avoid paradox.

However, he seemingly teleported back in time to the 1600's for no specific reason in HTSAEM, so he could have done a LOT more damage than he did (allowing the Osu village to burn down), which is why he was so adamant about making sure everything else happened as it was supposed to, which it assumingly did.

Blufyre77 · Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:43 am Post subject:

Yes, he was trying to leave the future as unaffected as possible (to reduce problems for the writers, no doubt) but any interaction at all with the past will screw something up, and who's to say what is "important" and what's not?

It is impossible for Hiro to make paradoxes for himself, for the reason that paradoxes are impossible. Hiro going back to save Charlie will not make it impossible to go back in the first place, it simply changes the future that will result from this current timeline when Hiro tries to save Charlie (although his attempt fails, I'm talking about if it had succeeded.). When Hiro messes with the past, it does not mean his future never existed, it is just now inaccessible from this timeline because that's not where this timeline leads.
Think about it. If Hiro is automatically sent to the present when he changes anything that will matter, it would be impossible for him to travel at all because every second he spends in the past means he breathes and contributes to global warming with his carbon dioxide, killing thousands of innocent polar bears! lol

You get my point, though, don't you? The only reason you are inclined to think that time travel works that way is because that is what happened on TV before, but those writers didn't know what they were talking about! Knowing about the implications of time travel is not part of their job description (though it would be nice) and they are interested in making successful plots that you don't need any understanding of time travel to understand. Not quite insulting them, but I would love a show that did it right so much! (as long as the show didn't already suck on its own.) Example: Back to the Future. It is an awesome movie, but it shows things like Marty fading because he altered his parent's lives, but then without any further interaction they fix it themselves and suddenly he goes back to normal. How is that supposed to make any sense? However, the movie was great anyway, so nobody really cared if they noticed. Heroes is great, and would be better if it did those things right.

Action Figure · Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:50 am Post subject:

actually the reason I think this is because that is what THIS tv show has presented, im not basing my claims on other works at all.

While yes I DO agree there are alternate timelines on the series, it cannot be as simple as Hiro traveling back in time, eliminating his reason to do so, and then traveling back to a new timeline. he must return to HIS native universe and present, thus he cannot create paradox. thus his power forced him back to his present.

remember, its all relative to the traveller.

notable though is the fact that Hiro managed to travel to a future with himself in it. that makes no sense as once he travels forward in time, he no longer exists in the space between. Perhaps future-hiro can jump inter-dimensionally, but that would far from explain ALL of the plotholes in the FYG storyline.

all in all the writers wont let any sort of established rule get in the way of the storytelling. so none of it matters I guess... roll

Action Figure · Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:03 am Post subject:

its also notable that ando was aware of the change of charlie's b-day picture when Hiro travelled back in time.

technically he shouldnt have detected it, just like the others. it should have just always been to him.

Frying_Man · Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject:

I'm unclear as to why a time traveler can't meet themselves in the future, as long as he/she returns to the "present." If one is capable of traveling both into the future and into the past, then there must be some sort of "pro-rated" future, not necessarily written in stone like fate, but the time traveler's future must be somewhat planned out as well if everyone else's future is. So for Hiro to meet himself in the future isn't so crazy, as long as future Hiro traveled to the future five years before. This "circular" phenomenon can result in some unexplainable things happening, like a time traveler only knowing to go into the past to give themselves advice because it already happened to them (Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure, anyone?), but that's to be expected when you're *traveling through time.*

Blufyre77 · Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:25 am Post subject:

The future is not pre-determined in the way you say, it simply exists independent of the time traveler and will simply run it's course without the traveler when they skip parts. Present Hiro telling past Hiro not to do something because it turned out bad will simply change what past Hiro does, but it cannot possibly erase what present Hiro did by the act of returning. He changes the past, it affects the present. Conveniently enough, (at least for those who are trying to explain it) the traveler is in the past when the change occurs and so cannot be erased.

You say that it is possible to go to the future and meet yourself because you will go back and live it out, but that is impossible because the future you's existence depends on you going back, which you have not done. The future you is created when you go back and survive the time in between, not right now because it is possible that you might go back and live the time in between. In your theory your interaction with the future (surviving or not in that future, as an example) would result in that future being created, and that is a paradox that could not happen.

Ambience 327 · Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:08 pm Post subject:

Blufyre77,

It is quite an interesting theory that you keep posting about - however you need to realise that it is only that - a theory. You constantly assert that if a time traveller travels forward, then he will atomatically enter a future in which his influence was completely removed from the point where he left to the point where he arrived.

I definately agree that what you are saying is a valid theory of time travel, which I am sure many scientific minds would agree with you on. It is also one possible way to interpret some of the things we have seen on this show (like Peter's trip to the virus-infected future), but certainly not the only way to interpret these events. For example, Peter could have simply arrived in a future where he really had died from the virus. After all, Adam had intended to release it, and Adam's blood was apparently immune from its effects (Bob said that a regenerator's blood was the best bet for a cure, and the Claire's blood + Mohindir's blood combo certainly cured Sylar), so it would not be unreasonable to think that Adam may have released the virus immediately, infecting Peter and letting him die. Therefore Peter would not have been present in that future (and Adam could have hid the body, covering up what was done, so that nobody knew about it).

I believe, however, that Hiro's trip to the Five Years Gone future directly contradicts your theory. Hiro travelled to the future, so by your theory he should have removed himself from the timeline, but he did indeed meet himself there so, as Frying_Man pointed out, it was pretty much a given that he would make it back to the past in order for that event to occur.

I am still working out how Heroes treats time travel (I think they are too, but we still have to work with what we are given, not on the most likely scientific theories), but here is how I see this particular portion currently:

Each individual's existence is like a string (heh, string theory, lol). Most people's strings run parrallell throughout time, running in one direction at a constant rate. Hiro, with his powers, can cause his own string to make twists and turns, meeting up with other strings at points where he would not have if his string had remained straight and constant like the others. However, his string still continues, just like the others, when he returns to his original position (or close to it) and allows himself the travel through time normally again. Therefore, in FYG, he twisted his string to a different spot, where he actually met up with his own string at a much further-along point - which still existed because he twisted it back again after meeting himself.

Complicated, but it works and is consistent with everything I've seen so far on the show. For other things (like whether he could save Charlie or Claire) you'd have to add things to the analogy, but it works as-is for this portion of the issue.

Also, I think it is entirely possible that the 1600's Japan scenario only ever existed as we witnessed it on the show. Heroes doesn't seem to have any problem with the predestination paradox (the question of whether events can cause themselves with time travel as a factor). It seems to me that this is exactly what happened, in straight-line chronological order:

- Hiro arrives in Japan, meets Kensai, helps him do great things, falls for the princess, fights Kensai, becomes the Kensai of legend. He travels forward into the future/present.

- Kaito tells Hiro of the great hero from the past, Takezo Kensai. Young Hiro is suitably impressed by someone who would act in such a heroic fashion - he wants to emulate such a great man.

- Hiro discovers his powers, learns to use them, has some adventures, stabs Sylar, is thrown toward a building and instinctively sends himself through time/space to prevent harm.

- Hiro returns from feudal Japan and continues his adventures.

As you can see, the timeline remains internally consistent - events cause other events, and the simple fact that Hiro can travel through time allows him to cause the very events that inspire him as a young person.

Since we can't actually travel through time (except at a basically constant rate in a single direction), we can't know for sure whether something like this could happen. Therefore, it is perfectly acceptable for a show's writers to choose this as their concept for time travel.

Blufyre77 · Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject:

Calling my theory "just a theory" is like calling science worthless because you can't ever really know anything. You can never actually know anything for certain. It is possible that all of the experiences you've had in your life resulted from a scientist zapping a brain in a vat, and making the brain think it exists in this world as you. It's possible, but you'd have to be crazy to believe it. All information that has been gathered by science can never prove anything, because a theory could be disproved by later info, or even re-established after that (like continental drift theory).
I know my model is true because it fits all of the facts. You may say "But wait, Hiro contradicted you, so you can't be right!" My answer is, obviously Hiro (meaning the writers of the show) was wrong. Just because something happens on TV does not mean it's true. The string you mention could not meet itself before it knew whether it would be cut in between or not. For the string to meet up with itself, it needs to stay alive until that point, which it has not done yet. You cannot be influenced by someone if their existence depends on the fact that you were influenced by them.

I have said over and over again that the predestination paradox is impossible, for the reasons I have said again and again, yet you have not refuted any of them (besides quoting an obviously fallible TV show).

[b]Action[/i], I do agree with you that the writers will not establish rules because TV is sometimes better without the implications of reality. I guess I'll be among the few who will know when things are logically wrong, though. "It may seem like I think my view is better than everybody else's, but that's the only view I have". <paraphrased quote from Orson Scott Card's Speaker for the Dead, love that book.

Ambience 327 · Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject:

Dude - I think you're taking this all a bit too seriously. I'm not trying to get into a heated debate with you here, I'm merely stating a few things. The first thing I am stating here is that Time Travel Theory is purely that - theoretical. You are referring to hard science, things that are observed and tested - and then comparing your particular notion of how time travel works to those things. However, we cannot even begin to theorize how time travel would affect the fabric of our universe because there is no way to actually observe it.

We know (or at least think we know) lots of things about our world because of scientific observation and experimentation. We know that when most things freeze, they get more dense, but that all the little fishies in a lake survive because water, when it freezes, actually expands and keeps the solid parts on the surface (rather than sinking to the bottom). This prevents the water in the lake from freezing completely through (as the water underneath is insulated from the cold - simplification but lets move on). We know all of this because we can observe it, we can run experiments in a controlled environment, etc.

By this same token, we cannot really know anything about how time travel works because we have to way of observing its function, its effects, etc. So calling your theory "just a theory" is an extension of this truth. You say that you know your model is true because it "fits all the facts" - I ask what these facts are? The fact is, we've never had someone leave a timeline and end up further into the future, so we don't know what that would cause.

You say that the predestination paradox is impossible, and the only reason I can find is your theory that if you leave the timeline, you cannot possibly exist again until you get to the future. As I stated before, this is a valid theory. It fits a certain logic, but it does not fit any empirical evidence because there is no way to gather that evidence. The closest thing to what you are suggesting is when a person goes missing, then is found years later. Yes, they have no influence on there former acquaintences, because they aren't there. They begin influencing them once they return. However, the missing piece in such an analogy is that there is no way for the missing person to then go back in time to just after they went missing - so we can't know what that would do.

Another valid theory (and only a theory) is that the time traveller would see the effects of things they have not yet done - and it isn't a big stretch to say that those things would not have happened in the way that they did if the time traveller had not seen the effects of them (because the "past" event of the time traveller seeing those results would have already happened for the future version of the time traveller who caused those results).

I've created an image that illustrates the basic timeline I am talking about here: