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Jormengrund · Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:55 pm Post subject:

Well, you're correct to a degree.

After all, in season 1, we saw that Hiro, by changing the past, altered the future. However, he didn't realize at first what he'd altered. In the episode "Five Years Gone", he got Peter to save Claire. This in turn made HRG hide Claire from the government. However, this also then killed DL, Candice, and Molly, since HRG turned them over to Matt and Homeland Security. Because of this, Sylar was able to get a few extra powers, and then take on the charade of being Nathan Petrelli, and go on his crusade to gain the White House.

Now, did events change? Yes. How did it affect the outcome? Well, for Hiro's future timeline, there wasn't much change besides some key figures still being active well after they should have been. However, after re-watching the episode, you can see that even with that intervention, the character that Hiro tried to rescue still was taken down, it just took a bit longer than was originally expected. Thus, even though time was messed with, and events changed, it didn't stave off the inevitable result.

That's one reason why I'm thinking that eventually Claire is going to be another Sylar victim. Maybe not in season 3, but soon....

Jessica · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:46 pm Post subject:

Is it just me or is anyone else tired of everyone calling everything a "plot hole"? If the writers choose to leave a million "loose ends" that don't get explained until the final show then they are not plot holes! You can't really call them plot holes until the end and they were never explained. Until then, it makes for some great thinking for us. It's just a show have fun with it. It would be nice if some of you would show this much intrest in things thst really matter. Like the election. LOL

Ambience 327 · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:58 pm Post subject:

[quote="Blufyre77]I have thought very long about this, and I am 99.99999% sure that I am correct.
When you travel to the future, it is not the future you would have ended up in normally, but one where you skipped out of your influence on the events in between. By traveling back to the present, your effect on these middle events is reestablished and that visited future destroyed, but do you know how to get back to that future? You do it by once again removing your influence on the middle events. It is possible.[/quote]

Considering that all time travel issues are mere theory (since noone has ever travelled through time in any but the usual way - or slightly faster than usual in some rare cases), we can but speculate on how it actually works. Some very bright minds would probably agree with your take, and some other bright minds would dismiss it as drivel and hogwash.

As far as the way this show treats time travel, we are in a similar pickle. We've seen a few different instances of time travel, including both future and past movement, and we've seen various effects on the timeline due to these movements. Sometimes it seems that the past cannot be changed at all, or that it will fix itself some way (Kensai, Charlie, Five Years Gone) and sometimes it seems like a difference can be made. I think we need to wait and observe - and hope the writers stick to a defined set of rules if possible!

Blufyre77 · Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject:

Well, the theory I made pretty much covered what happened on the show (besides some things that the writers did that just plain wouldn't happen), and it is really the simplest theory that creates zero paradoxes or impossibilities and makes sense. With this, if you kill your past self, it doesn't automatically kill you because this is not your timeline and it will result in a future timeline where there isn't a you. I saw people saying things like that on this site and I was like, wait a sec, that couldn't happen! This model pretty much covers it (and please correct me if I'm wrong). Time is pretty easy to understand if nobody messes with it, and if they do, it just results in a different future, not a "huge hole ripped into the space-time continuum". Answering Jormengrund, I did not say that the effect of your messing with the past will always be what you intend, and it doesn't make sense to say that "things will basically turn out the same" because the same result will only happen sometimes. It is not believable that if you change the starting variables in the past that it will ultimately result in the same future. This is also known as the "Butterfly Effect", or dependence on initial circumstances. Things aren't going to turn out the same if things weren't the same to begin with.

Jormengrund · Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject:

I agree Blury, however there's also something else that's attributed to why things won't always turn out the same each time. That's called Human Nature.

After all, give a person seven diffrerent choices, and depending on the circumstance, you could get seven different answers.

There's no guarantee that just because you affect one single instance that it's going to forever change the path. Who knows? Just because you stopped that cheerleader from being killed at the High School doesn't mean that six months later she doesn't stumble across this same hunter, and he gains her power anyway.

What do you do then? Go and change that past? What if she then stumbles into him a year from then? Are you telling me that Hiro was only tracking one specific individual, and making sure that he kept her out of trouble up until his timeline?

That's not possible. After all, once he changes something that affects his timeline, it no longer becomes "his" timeline. It changes into something completely different.

So I guess the argument is a moot point, because as far as everything we've seen and debated here shows, they don't have a good explanation to time travel, even though they've got a prolific time traveller in the show.

Sad, but true.

Blufyre77 · Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject:

Well, it isn't pointless, because although there is always the chance that what you changed won't be significant, you can make a big impact if you know what you are doing. Case in point: Future Hiro. He teleports to the past, tells Pete to "Save the Cheerleader" and saves the lives of millions of people (it does eventually cause Present Hiro to change the present). I do hope that the writers give us some explanation about how they are treating time travel, instead of letting us guess from the partially incoherent examples they've given. Of course, if they do it wrong I'll complain. Their problem, not mine. Smile

Hercules67 · Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:21 pm Post subject:

The basic problem is the way that "Time Travel" has been depicted on "Heroes" so far. I recently finished reading the following book: Three Days to Never

I can say with confidence that this book does a much better job of describing and using TIME TRAVEL than many other stories, I have seen or read.

The basic premise is this (based on Einstein's "Relativity"): If the "observer" or the person attempting to TIME TRAVEL is in the here and now, then there are two cones of uncertainty. One projecting forward and projecting backward. The TIME TRAVELER can not move sideways, but can move backwards to a specific point in time within that uncertainty cone, AS LONG AS he has a way to fix to that point. For Hiro, that means, a memory of 1678 A.D. or specific instance taking him to the subway in NYC.

Now, going the other way to the future, and the way the book would have handled the case of Caitlin stuck in the future, here is the answer: SINCE the Virus NEVER got released in the Universe or Timeline the "Heroes" are experiencing, then Caitlin NEVER got captured in that future.... So where did Peter leave her? How about that Timeline's Caitlin? Are there two Cailtins in that Timeline? YES. Effectively, Caitlin IS DEAD, unless Peter specifically goes back TO THAT WIPED AWAY TIMELINE to RETRIEVE Caitlin.

VeryBadOmen · Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:09 am Post subject:

Well there wouldn't be two Caitlins because the Caitlin of all times moved to the future. That would mean that no matter the future. the Caitlin of the past never lived through that time. Her presence was composed of: being in the present then leaving and traveling to the future. This happens all the time with Hiro, he leaves the present to live in the past or future, and we all can see that Ando knows he is gone and for how long.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is that if Hiro can meet himself at another time, his meetings with himself can multiply into endless numbers of himself. If Hiro could plan it, he could travel to a time period when all other Hiro existences could travel. So, there could be billions of Hiros at one point.

I think the main point here is that any theory about Time travel can be contradicted.

Hercules67 · Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:23 am Post subject:

Actually, that's not true.... The Physics of Time Travel allows for an instance where I can be there in the past with my younger self.

In the show, this was shown when Hiro, after traveling to NYC, had the Japanese sepaking detective call Yamagato industries to ask for Ando, but Hiro himself, answered the PHONE!!! So, TWO Hiro's co-existed in that timeline.

Caitlin will only Cease to exist only when that possible future ceases to exist, BUT since all futures are possible, then Caitlin is alive in the future Peter left her in, leaving in an altered state of reality, hence the original question I posed:

Will Peter go back to save here?

VeryBadOmen · Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:09 am Post subject:

What were you saying of my post was not true...I just said that Hiro can be there with his past self and future selves, possibly endless amounts of them.

I'm saying that in the present, there is no more Caitlin since she is stuck in the future. When the heroes arrive at that date, they will be able to interact with her again. Caitlin could be there with her future self though, if that future-self didn't die during the initial outbreak. The hard way to understand this is that Caitlin can't time travel on her own like Hiro. The timeline must have just changed around her when Peter stopped the Virus. Sort of like when Hiro went back in time and took a picture with Charlie.

I doubt Peter will go back and save her. I think the writers will just scrap her whole story, with the limited amount of time because of the writers strike. I mean they had to scrap a whole volume, Exodus. I really don't think it was that serious of a relationship, it was about the same as his with Simone, and we don't see the writers making that decision for Peter to go back in time to save her.

Blufyre77 · Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:08 am Post subject:

The timeline can't change around her! How would she still be left in a future that Peter never visited? She isn't unique in that future so that everything will change except her, she was never in that timeline, so she can't exist there now. She also couldn't be with her future self because she skipped the time in between Montreal and New York, her future self doesn't exist yet because she hasn't gone back to live through the virus year yet.

What I believe Herc is trying to ask is:
Is it possible for Peter to access Kaitlin's future right now, and if so, will he, or will he be stopped somehow?

I think Peter has six choices:
a. go back in time to where P&K jump to the future and accompany them unseen, taking Kaitlin back after Peter goes back to the past.
b. go back and grab Kaitlin from his past self before they go to the future and either stay there or tell Peter to travel back to get Kaitlin at such and such a date to prevent inconsistencies(possible but would require the writers to rewrite S 2, so not actually possible).
c. forget about her temporarily and start a life of crime shoplifting socks as his mommy taught him("if I get enough of these, I can sell them and use the money to buy a time machine to rescue Kaitlin!")
d. get killed by Sylar (one plausible way for him not to go after Kaitlin, Sylar then = undefeatable so show sucks.)
e. the writers all get killed by Sylar and Heroes is cancelled, we all start running away from him and screaming.
f. Peter is unable to figure out how to save Kaitlin, viewers start shouting possibilities for her rescue at their TVs and get frustrated.
As you can see, c*cough* I mean a is the best answer. I guess if Kaitlin is rescued and nobody likes her or she makes problems, there are plenty of ways for her to die, and no, I won't list them.

Frying_Man · Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:37 am Post subject:

Is time relative? Didn't Hiro draw a circle to explain how time travel works, instead of a straight line? As The Doctor would say, it's kind of a wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey sort of thing.

Blufyre77 · Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:01 am Post subject: