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Hack-it-like-Micah
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 Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Let's instead of talking about paradoxes let's talk about how friggin sweet hiro's powers are gonna be I mean Stopping Time and traveling to the past and finding peter's exact location and carrying a sword..... hiros' gonna be jesus sweet |
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masdog
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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You're right, Micah. Enough arguing about paradoxes.
So if you had Hiro's powers, what would you do with them?? |
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Hack-it-like-Micah
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Well since I cant visit myself I'd try to help myself by leaving notes in places I'll know i'll check and tell myself things like dont date her she's a psycho and crap like that |
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masdog
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Hack-it-like-Micah wrote: |
| Well since I cant visit myself I'd try to help myself by leaving notes in places I'll know i'll check and tell myself things like dont date her she's a psycho and crap like that |
But would you listen to the notes from yourself? I mean...if you just found a note laying around that appeared to be addressed to you saying some rather attractive girl was psycho, would you really take the advice?
I honestly don't think I would. I would probably end up dating her anyway.
I would like to use the power to get the winning lottery numbers and the winning horses from the big races. |
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BYD
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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this thread is for theories on how time and bending/stopping it works on the show. |
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MTF
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| The discussion that developed is the reason why I originally posted my theory on its own thread, and why I don't think it should have been merged with this one. My theory proposes that there are two sylars in the present world (one of whom is a sylar from the future), and gives a description of the reasons why Hiro needed to travel back in time and the effect that is having on the timeline of the story--kind of an overall synopsis of the Heroes story with the main plot explained. In contrast, this thread is about the nature of time travel on the show, which was only related to my post tangentially, as I was not concerned with whether time overwrites itself or there are multiple timelines existing simultaneously or how to resolve time travel paradoxes. Oh well, no big deal. |
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BYD
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| MTF wrote: |
| The discussion that developed is the reason why I originally posted my theory on its own thread, and why I don't think it should have been merged with this one. My theory proposes that there are two sylars in the present world (one of whom is a sylar from the future), and gives a description of the reasons why Hiro needed to travel back in time and the effect that is having on the timeline of the story--kind of an overall synopsis of the Heroes story with the main plot explained. In contrast, this thread is about the nature of time travel on the show, which was only related to my post tangentially, as I was not concerned with whether time overwrites itself or there are multiple timelines existing simultaneously or how to resolve time travel paradoxes. Oh well, no big deal. |
I left your original thread as a shadow so that so that those interested could still see where to go to read it, but I believe it does belong with this thread, as you theorized the possible time-travel of Sylar and the ability to have the same matter in 2 places simultaneously. The off-topic post was based on the 4 previous posts discussing what you would do if you had the power to bend time. |
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masdog
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| Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| MTF wrote: |
| One problem that develops with #2 is that it relies on actions of the past self that may not materialize. For example, future Hiro told Peter information, which Peter relayed to present Hiro. But what if Peter kept that info to himself, and saved the cheerleader, but never told Hiro that he did so because future Hiro told him so? If we go by your theory that "time" will bounce you back to the time you left at the point that you are doing something that causes a paradox, at what point would that happen here? Clearly not at the moment future Hiro talked to Peter, as that didn't happen here; and Peter could have years in which to decide whether or not to tell Hiro that future Hiro visited him. |
In most cases where a predestination paradox occurs, the person from the future talks with himself, or more accurately, a past version of himself. As that is not the case here, and we know that Peter told Present Hiro about a visit from the future, we know that your argument about Peter not telling Hiro is void. We see him talk to Hiro about the visit from the future, so we can't assume that it won't happen.
As to your comment about paradox, a Predestination Paradox isn't actually a paradox. Like many things in the world, it is misnamed, and it is really a consistent time loop where the rules of causality are bent, but not broken. As I understand it, the cause comes after the effect and spurs the events that lead to the cause.
As for why it doesn't lead to a paradox or rift, it is speculated that predestination events become "part of history." It happened in the past, and in order to ensure the survival of your future, it has to happen again. It is hard to understand, and it sounds like a lot of gibberish, but that is the best way I can explain it.
| MTF wrote: |
| But putting aside that problem, you fail to recognize that #2 still needs an initial decision to go back in time that is based on an actual need to go back. You admit that things occur (on a single timeline) but then can be erased and overwritten when things change (see future Ando, for example). That concedes that the timeline did progress once already, but was then overwritten. On the original progression of the timeline, which was unaltered by time travel into the past, there must have been a decision to travel back in time based not on the knowledge that you had already traveled back (as that hadn't happened yet), but rather on a need to travel back (for example, to save the world). |
Alright...I lost your somewhere in there. You're talking about a few separate things here. One is the evolution of the future timeline as seen from the present. Another is the decision to go back in time.
I can't really speak for the first part. As for the second part, there really is no "initial" decision. Your traveling back in time in the future becomes part of the history of the future, and it spurs the decision for you to go back in time when the timeline has progressed. There need not be an initial condition to create the loop.
Yes, I realize that it turns causality on it's head.
| MTF wrote: |
If the show is going to put forth the idea that Sylar can basically replicate most of the other powers on the show with his one TK power, I think it would be a weak cop out. But, it is possible.
However, Sylar falling to the ground, laying there for a few seconds, and then rising back up is far more explanable with Claire's power than with stopping the bullets with TK. And why did we not see or hear bullets falling to the ground as he stopped them in mid-air? It sure looked like the bullets hit him and that he healed up. Again, your idea is possible, but having to argue "hollywood physics" is far less of an explanation that the simplest one: that he had Claire's power (and maybe DL's too). |
Again, you misunderstand what I mean by masquerade. It appears to be other powers, but it really isn't. Flight - using telekinesis to levitate. The bullet thing - using tk to drain the kinetic energy.
I can't explain why we don't hear the bullets fall to the ground until he stands up. The best theory I can give is that he slowed them down enough that they just settled on his coat and they fell when he stood back up. It couldn't have been Claire or DL's powers - if he was using Claire's regen ability, he wouldn't have healed until the bullets were removed (assuming Matt is a good shot, Sylar wouldn't have had the ability to use his TK to remove them because he would be dead or quickly dying...unable to use the healing). DL's power would have caused the bullets to fly right through him, not sending him backwards at all.
| MTF wrote: |
| As for his conversation with Eden, I agree with your interpretation of that. But that doesn't mean that he did that at the police station. Once again, we didn't see bullets stopping in midair and dropping to the ground. |
We wouldn't see the bullets stopping or dropping. As I recall the scene, we see Matt shooting while the views of Sylar are shrouded in shadows and darkness. The scene is designed to immediately confuse and distract the viewers with "what ifs."
| MTF wrote: |
| Regardless, none of your responses address the argument you quoted: that the scene at the police station is strong evidence for my theory. Yes, there are alternative explanations (which I think are more complicated and unlikely than my interpretation), but you have pointed to nothing inherently flawed with the theory that the Sylar at the police station was a more powerful one from the future. |
Except that there is no evidence for it in the show. We see nothing that supports this theory. |
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jjafargi
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| masdog wrote: |
| MTF wrote: |
| Regardless, none of your responses address the argument you quoted: that the scene at the police station is strong evidence for my theory. Yes, there are alternative explanations (which I think are more complicated and unlikely than my interpretation), but you have pointed to nothing inherently flawed with the theory that the Sylar at the police station was a more powerful one from the future. |
Except that there is no evidence for it in the show. We see nothing that supports this theory. |
As MTF's argument on the previous page about the photo in the diner changing instead of having Hiro in it all along pretty much debunks your entire critique of his theory, I am inclined to continue seeing his as possibly correct. But great arguments from you both. and congrats on keeping the debate civil and intellectual!  |
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masdog
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| jjafargi wrote: |
| As MTF's argument on the previous page about the photo in the diner changing instead of having Hiro in it all along pretty much debunks your entire critique of his theory, I am inclined to continue seeing his as possibly correct. But great arguments from you both. and congrats on keeping the debate civil and intellectual! |
Thank you, I admit it is a challenge to keep debate civil.
As for the photo changing, it is only proof of the single timeline. As for proof of an alternate future where a Hiro and Sylar traveled back, there is no proof. At least from my point of view....  ) |
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jjafargi
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| masdog wrote: |
| jjafargi wrote: |
| As MTF's argument on the previous page about the photo in the diner changing instead of having Hiro in it all along pretty much debunks your entire critique of his theory, I am inclined to continue seeing his as possibly correct. But great arguments from you both. and congrats on keeping the debate civil and intellectual! |
Thank you, I admit it is a challenge to keep debate civil.
As for the photo changing, it is only proof of the single timeline. As for proof of an alternate future where a Hiro and Sylar traveled back, there is no proof. At least from my point of view.... ) |
Yes, the changing photo does indeed prove that there is a single timeline, but that is not the point I was trying to make. MTF is saying that there was an initial, unaltered state of the timeline where the cheerleader died and Sylar became unstoppable, thus prompting "Future" Hiro to travel back in time to the "Present" for the very first time with the intent of warning Peter that Claire needs to be saved. "Future" Sylar piggy-backs, possibly using the mimicry of a now dead "Future" Peter to escape his time before it is overwritten by the actions of "Future" Hiro. Now, in order for "Present" Peter to have enough time to piece things together AND make it to Odessa to save Claire, "Future" Hiro had to go back well before the Charlie incident. Therefore, the overwrite begins BEFORE "Present" Hiro meets and loses Charlie and decides to travel back in time himself. Hence, the first photo of them together in the diner does not appear until AFTER he goes back in time, spawning the second overwrite in the timeline. (Note that the whole "Future" Ando situation is in fact not an overwrite at all. The "Future" that "Present" Hiro witnesses is not the same one that "Future" Hiro comes from at all. It is an alternate version of the "Future" that exists ONLY because Hiro vanishes from his own timeline for five weeks. Once he returns, everything is simply reset as if nothing ever happened; hence, no overwrite in this case. Now back to my own original timeline lol.) This model perfectly predicts what we know to have happened so far, plus adding explanation to the unusual discrepencies in Sylar's powers (which I will not go into, for time's sake).
Now, your theory, as I understand it Masdog, is this: there was no initial condition of the timeline that spurred a first time-jump by "Future" Hiro, but rather time is in an infinite loop. Your model states that there is one Hiro, who time-jumps simply because he knows that he's done it before, instead of doing it out of any actual need to do so. However, if this is the case, that time continuously cycles solely as a result of the Predestination Paradox, then the photo in the diner should always show Hiro with Charlie, which it clearly did not.
My appologies if this was hard to follow, I just explained to the best of my abilities what I interpretted to be both of your meaning,while simultaneously presenting my own thoughts on the matter. |
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EyeKanFly
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| Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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ok...I'm sorry if this has been said before, I didn't read ALL four pages.
The future can be changed, but not the past. Hiro goes back in time to save Charlie, but he can't.
Future Hiro goes back in time to tell Peter to save the world, and this is possible because it's not Hiro himself changing the past.
In this way, the cheerleader could be saved, Sylar could be stopped, the world can be saved, the bomb can be stopped, but Charlie could NOT be saved. |
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jjafargi
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| EyeKanFly wrote: |
ok...I'm sorry if this has been said before, I didn't read ALL four pages.
The future can be changed, but not the past. Hiro goes back in time to save Charlie, but he can't.
Future Hiro goes back in time to tell Peter to save the world, and this is possible because it's not Hiro himself changing the past.
In this way, the cheerleader could be saved, Sylar could be stopped, the world can be saved, the bomb can be stopped, but Charlie could NOT be saved. |
Charlie could not be saved because she had a fatal brain aneurysm. The universe didn't just give it to her all of a sudden because Hiro tried to save her himself. So far, we still lack enough evidence to state matter-of-factly that Hiro cannot affect direct change to a timeline. In fact, if you remember, he saved that Japanese girl from getting run over after returning from the future with his 9th Wonders! comic, so we've seen him at least once directly alter a person's fate. |
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MTF
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