Actually, time WAS changed when Hiro went to the future (when he saw the explosion first-hand) if you think about it.
While there, he accidentally called himself at Yamagato industries. Since he isnt there now, things have changed.
When Hiro went to the future and the police were interrogating him for Isaac's murder, he had the police call Ando at Yamagato Industries, and Ando explained that Hiro had been missing for five (or six) weeks.
When Hiro went to the past in "Six Months Ago," he tried to call Ando at Yamagato Industries and accidentally talked to himself.
Your point stands. The future Hiro saw at the beginning of the season has had a few alterations, since Ando hasn't been putting up MISSING posters in Japan for the past month+. At least I think I saw a MISSING poster for Hiro at Ando's desk.
Stream A: Sylar kills Claire, and Peter (or Sylar) goes bang, Hiro and Peter meet up coincidently and Peter has picked up a scar from somewhere as he has no healing ability.
Stream B: Hiro goes back in time, gets Peter to save Claire, but comes back to a future where Peter has apparently saved Claire, but the future hasn't changed at all, and as the explosion still happened, Hiro assumes the venture failed. I seem to remember he is genuinely suprised when he finds out that Claire had in fact survived and had been in hiding 'all along'.
(This last bit is a neat method of having a major event change have minimal effect on the present.)
Stream B, as far as I can tell, should have Hiro teleporting back to a world where Peter was without the scar (as he had healing powers). If Hiro had saved the cheerleader, he should have saved Peter's face as a direct result.
Essentially, it seems that Tim Kring and the gang have changed their minds about how time travel works in the show.
When Hiro travels forward in time (from Oct 2nd to Nov 8th), time continues from when he left to when he arrived at his destination as if he isn't there, hence "Hiro missing", and there's only October Hiro present in the future he's travelled to.
Now, however, they're doing it differently. When Hiro travels to the future, the intervening time continues as if he'd never left, so when he travels from 2006 to 2011, Both 2006Hiro and 2011Hiro are present in the future.
What does this mean?
It means we can't possibly predict anything by using time travel in the show as evidence, because the gang can and will change the methodology to suit the plot. Same as with all the other powers. Hmmmm.....it's been a while since I've made a post like this, but I think it's the conclusion I've reached with every single ability so far.
Stream A: Sylar kills Claire, and Peter (or Sylar) goes bang, Hiro and Peter meet up coincidently and Peter has picked up a scar from somewhere as he has no healing ability.
Stream B: Hiro goes back in time, gets Peter to save Claire, but comes back to a future where Peter has apparently saved Claire, but the future hasn't changed at all, and as the explosion still happened, Hiro assumes the venture failed. I seem to remember he is genuinely suprised when he finds out that Claire had in fact survived and had been in hiding 'all along'.
(This last bit is a neat method of having a major event change have minimal effect on the present.)
Stream B, as far as I can tell, should have Hiro teleporting back to a world where Peter was without the scar (as he had healing powers). If Hiro had saved the cheerleader, he should have saved Peter's face as a direct result.
As far as Hiro not knowing claire was alive (or even that Peter still has a scar for that matter)...in the online graphic novel, you see that Future Hiro and current Hiro BOTH teleport to the strung timeline in Isaac's apartment at the same moment (future hiro coming back from telling Peter STCSTW on the subway)
Yeah, I've been trying to figure out the alternate timeline thing for 2 weeks now (since I first saw the preview of Peter with a scar, and remembered future Hiro telling peter on the subway "you look different without your scar)
I'm thinking though that the future hasn't yet changed for peter (as far as the scar goes) as that the moment that the scar was created, hasn't yet changed from the version of Peter that saved claire and can regenerate, hence, the scar is not yet gone...does that make any sense at all??)
Essentially, it seems that Tim Kring and the gang have changed their minds about how time travel works in the show.
When Hiro travels forward in time (from Oct 2nd to Nov 8th), time continues from when he left to when he arrived at his destination as if he isn't there, hence "Hiro missing", and there's only October Hiro present in the future he's travelled to.
Now, however, they're doing it differently. When Hiro travels to the future, the intervening time continues as if he'd never left, so when he travels from 2006 to 2011, Both 2006Hiro and 2011Hiro are present in the future.
What does this mean?
It means we can't possibly predict anything by using time travel in the show as evidence, because the gang can and will change the methodology to suit the plot. Same as with all the other powers. Hmmmm.....it's been a while since I've made a post like this, but I think it's the conclusion I've reached with every single ability so far.
Here's the thing with that Slippy..... for the past instances of hiros timetraveling, he was actually gone when he'd jumped (especially when he jumped to new york, as he physically changed locations as well as time....he was missing because he traveled to NY.......leading us to believe, he traveled to NY, and then moved time forward to the future.....
As far as future hiro and present hiro both existing, future hiro has already been established, meaning he is on his own timeline, so past or present hiro teleporting to the future wouldn't change his existence, and if Hiro were to travel back to a time from before he teleported (like he did in the past instances), there would still be an instance of him (i.e. talking to himself when he called)....
I think in Hiro missing, that 2 hiros may have actually existed, only the future hiro in that case, would have been in another location from the past hiro.....
and though I think part of my thoughts work, the more I try to explain what I'm talking about, the more I'm agreeing with your thoughts on the writers thoughts about time travel changing
That all makes sense, but note I wrote that *before* Hiro displayed his ability to manipulate time on a local scale. And you are right - We know the explosion happens, there is no reason the explosion cannot un-happen.
Note also that the heroes do not yet realise they are unable to change the future and are doing their best to try and stop it.
I am still unsure how to interpret Hiro's experiments in the diner. At worst, he change irrelevent details. The waitress got the book of him rather than an anonymous stranger, Hiro was elsewhere when she died rather than being in the diner, and she still died.
At best, him going back in time was predestined, an unovoidable future event - He needed to go back to fill in the grey parts of history - *somebody* special to the waitress needed to give her the book, and that funny stuff with him being in the diner for her murder and then not having been there is just an unpreventable local anomoly, or a flaw in the script-writing.
That deal with the book always had a cludgy feel to it, the need of a future entity needing to manipulate the past to cement it into reality works for me.
Precognition is a powerful ability - knowing what is going to happen allows you to plan for that event, and to make provisions for it. For instance, they know Isaac dies in his apartment, probably killed by the hands of Sylar. There is nothing to indicate Sylar was able to escape from the possible trap the other heroes laid for him.
Okay, maybe the writers haven't changed their thoughts that much....
maybe.....hiro throughout his "experiments" realizes that he is unable to be the one to change the future...in that a future being cannot be the one to change the past, and in turn, change the future from happening, BUT...he could go back and influence a "creature" of that timeline to change the future....
i.e. peter saving claire......after all, if one was destined to die and sylar from timeline 1 had killed claire, but then after peter saved her she was alive 5 years in the future, does she die at that point because it's inevitable, or was the future, and her "immenent death" changed??
I think that's why he eventually has Peter save her, as he knows someone other than himself taveling to a timeline that he's not a direct part of (i.e. traveling into the past), has to be the one to change the future.....
Also, changing the future may be one thing, while changing the present that you experience may be another (i.e. hiro can go into the future, see what's going to happen, and stop it from happening, but he can't go back and change something (himself at least) that he witnessed happen.... (i.e. Charlie))
so if we were to say "you can change the future, but you can't change the past" (which I like as a quote by the way...I think I'm going to adopt it ), we would be close to what the writers seem to believe, as even future hiro isn't necessarily changing the past, but trying to get past/present future to change the future..
make sense??? thoughts on this???
like it, hate it, love it?? think I'm a complete idiot for thinking it??
The idea of Hiro time travelling is okay but meeting his own self (past or future) does not fit logic properly.
# As soon as Hiro has made a time jump to the past, it is not like jumping into the past but it is like rewinding the time. (Hence Hiro should not meet his past instance).
# As soon as Hiro makes time jump into the future, it is new set of instance as during jump period, Hiro should have been missing. (explained: when Hiro time travels, his physical body disappears from point A and appears at B, and if you work on this logic, two instances of Hiro is not logical)
The idea of Hiro time travelling is okay but meeting his own self (past or future) does not fit logic properly.
# As soon as Hiro has made a time jump to the past, it is not like jumping into the past but it is like rewinding the time. (Hence Hiro should not meet his past instance).
# As soon as Hiro makes time jump into the future, it is new set of instance as during jump period, Hiro should have been missing. (explained: when Hiro time travels, his physical body disappears from point A and appears at B, and if you work on this logic, two instances of Hiro is not logical)
And the writers are working off a different logic, and until someone actually travels through time, we can't say they are wrong in whatever they choose to believe on this topic :p
Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 9:19 pm Post subject: The Effects of Hiro's Time Travel.
If Future Hiro came back in time and told Peter to save Claire, which he did, wouldn't that have changed the future significantly since Future Sylar then would not have the ability to heal when we saw him in FYG. Also if Hiro and Ando know that they are supposed to stop the bomb then the hiro and Ando two days in the future would have already succedeed or not succedeed, so when we saw the future in FYG it would have already changed right? Time Travel is extremely confusing. Also what are the pyschological ramifications of seeing yourself die in the future as Hiro did. and now that Ando knows he is going to die in the future then he is going to try to change it and that might cause a paradox!
For a start, we all know we are going to die in the future at some stage. I think knowing the date/time/method could actually be quite beneficial. It'd give you time to do those things you wanted to do but wouldn't have gotten around to it...
But anyway, time travel.
As it isn't real, writers can make up the rules as they go along. But the labcoats have been doing a lot of thinking and have come up with potential methods that make sense and follow some sort of scientific logic.
The scenario that has the most potential follows the quantum method, used so successfully in the movie Sliding Doors where everything you do, every decision you make, everything that has a probability of happening, makes branches in the timeline.
Should I stay home sick today, or go to work? In the above scenario, you do both. Of the infinite number of branches, you happen to be reading this in this particular branch because this happens to be the branch I typed it in.
Now, by going back and changing things, you do not prevent things from happening at all, you just create a new branch. Things still happen, but they happen in another timeline to another you.
In short, every decision you (or anybody else) had the choice of making, was made.
A refinement of this is done by bringing a few extra Quantum trickeries, which goes somewhay towards clearing up the mess.
Untill "observed", all the possible branches are just probabilities. (Note the definition of "Observed" is pretty loose) The timelines branch off each other until somebody outside the system studies it, at which point the best, most likely, or first observed branch will 'solidify' and become the timeline, and all other potential timelines will cease to be.
Then there is the "It's all been planned from start to go, and nothing we can do can change things" scenario, which frankly makes for a boring movie.
The writers of time-travel fiction are free to modify these 'rules' as much as they like.
So, all this discussion of time travel is us trying to work out the groundrules the writers are working to (If any) in an attempt to understand what can and can't happen in the storyline.
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