Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 4:08 am Post subject: Re: The Death of Mr. Linderman
Action Figure wrote:
Did Linderman know his death was coming to him?
He seems to know all of the other goings ons and machinations in the universe thanks to his precog army.
But I think the scene conveyed that he DIDN'T know it was coming, which also makes me think that the timeline has DEFINATELY already been changed.
Thoughts?
I agree Action, that the timeline has indeed changed and that Linderman had no clue of his impending bad fortune. However, Linderman did not have materials on himself but on others. I believe he was arrogant enough to think that no one would ever try to kill him. Had Linderman been a little more focused on his own future instead of the future in general, he may have been able to take steps to avoid the situation. Linderman plotted to get DL and Niki together, to get Micah, so he could rig the election. Linderman constantly believed that Niki/Jessica would kill DL for the money, but he was wrong. It surprised him, due to his arrogance, enough to result in his death.
Yeah, that's something I mentioned during the live chat that intrigued me - the irony behind the fact that while Linderman's precog army provided him with visions of people, places, and events, he himself was unable to see his own future - much like the irony behind the precognitive painter who paints his own death.
At first I thought that Linderman's death was a change in the timeline, much like the saving of Claire and development that Peter is now the bomb in Loop #3 unlike Sylar in Loop #1. However, Acidman brought up a good point that The Linderman Act we heard about in the future timeline may have been passed in commemoration of Linderman, which would imply that he had already died in the future, so he could have in fact died the same way. Additionally, five years is a long time, so Linderman could have indeed croaked sometime between November 9th 2006 and November 8th 2012.
As for my own thoughts, I'm feeling a strong pull towards the fact that Linderman's death was a change in the timeline, so I'm going to go along with you and Byd on this one
I don't think Linderman had a plan in place for Jessica being willing to give up control to Nikki. I know that he'd been studying all of them quite thoroughly for quite a long time, so he had some good assumptions to go by, but when it all came down to making a play, the observations and theories went right out the window. As General Patton once said: "A good plan only is sund and survives until contact is made, then it's every man for himself."
I don't think DL or Nikki/Jessica reacted like he'd thought or planned. And when push came to shove, DL got the better end of the deal.
Yeah, I don't think Linderman had any idea it was coming. In FYG they have that thing called the Linderman Act. IMO Linderman survived past the bomb in that timeline and did something to make himself known to the public and make him that "humanitarian" he wants to be remembered for. But he died somewhere after that. My reason being that...I find it kind of odd that the entire country would be behind this "Linderman Act" without knowing who or what Linderman is. He had to have made himself known at one point. So IMO this is one thing we can count on as being changed in the timeline. I know this is just speculation, but this is what i think after knowing in FYG that thing is called the Linderman Act.
Or will Nathan create an act in memory of Linderman, as a way of showing his thanks for getting him into the place where he's at, and create the Linderman Act?
I don't know, but in FYG, we don't see Linderman, so my assumption is that Linderman was dead in FYG. It could very well be that the Linderman Act was a posthumous action to commemorate Nathan getting into his place of power..
Yeah, I do think it was to pay homage to Linderman. And i also said i thought linderman was dead in FYG. But, my whole thing is.....you can't just put out an act that all of america is going to get behind and name it after a person without giving the country knowledge of who or what the person is/did. So, if Linderman died the exact same way in the FYG timeline, then why are we going to get behind the linderman act when we've never even met this guy or know who he is.
And furthermore.....doesn't america know that linderman is a gangster? I mean....the Petrelli dad was going to prosecute him in court...so the public had to know about him. So, either Linderman survived and did something that DID make America think he was a humanitarian....or Nathan somehow told all of America about this guy who is dead, (if he died the same way in that timeline.) who is a gangster in most american's eyes, and how he helped us all so much and then proceeds to name an act after him. The first one sounds a bit more believable. Because the second one is just like if after Osama bombed the world trade center, he died. But then bush came out and talked about how great of a man he was and decides to call the war on terror the Osama Act and all of america cheers. I think the events in the timeline changed and linderman didn't see it coming at all.
Yeah, I don't think Linderman had any idea it was coming. In FYG they have that thing called the Linderman Act. IMO Linderman survived past the bomb in that timeline and did something to make himself known to the public and make him that "humanitarian" he wants to be remembered for. But he died somewhere after that. My reason being that...I find it kind of odd that the entire country would be behind this "Linderman Act" without knowing who or what Linderman is. He had to have made himself known at one point. So IMO this is one thing we can count on as being changed in the timeline. I know this is just speculation, but this is what i think after knowing in FYG that thing is called the Linderman Act.
I think if u rewatch ep 5 years on ul c that the linderman act was passed to clamp down on the mutants, it probably spawned the whole homeland security. So linderman at some point in the futur probably tryed to controll nathan/sylar and faild, forcing him to take action against the goverment.
Yeah, I don't think Linderman had any idea it was coming. In FYG they have that thing called the Linderman Act. IMO Linderman survived past the bomb in that timeline and did something to make himself known to the public and make him that "humanitarian" he wants to be remembered for. But he died somewhere after that. My reason being that...I find it kind of odd that the entire country would be behind this "Linderman Act" without knowing who or what Linderman is. He had to have made himself known at one point. So IMO this is one thing we can count on as being changed in the timeline. I know this is just speculation, but this is what i think after knowing in FYG that thing is called the Linderman Act.
That's a great suggestion, Alu. I never thought of it that way, and I'm going to agree with you. After all, I don't know if the country would support an act named after a crime boss - that would only make them push Nathan away. From what we've seen, Nathan brought the country together, so the only way for that to happen, IMO, would be for Linderman rise up as that "humanitarian" and gain the country's support, enough so that Nathan could create an act in his name, one that all Americans would support.
Yeah, I don't think Linderman had any idea it was coming. In FYG they have that thing called the Linderman Act. IMO Linderman survived past the bomb in that timeline and did something to make himself known to the public and make him that "humanitarian" he wants to be remembered for. But he died somewhere after that. My reason being that...I find it kind of odd that the entire country would be behind this "Linderman Act" without knowing who or what Linderman is. He had to have made himself known at one point. So IMO this is one thing we can count on as being changed in the timeline. I know this is just speculation, but this is what i think after knowing in FYG that thing is called the Linderman Act.
That's a great suggestion, Alu. I never thought of it that way, and I'm going to agree with you. After all, I don't know if the country would support an act named after a crime boss - that would only make them push Nathan away. From what we've seen, Nathan brought the country together, so the only way for that to happen, IMO, would be for Linderman rise up as that "humanitarian" and gain the country's support, enough so that Nathan could create an act in his name, one that all Americans would support.
So why then when the news report on in the cafe, the reporter said there hasnt been this many arrests of people with abilitys since The Linderman Act was passed, so unless thats the way they celebrate humanitarians in amercia by making mass arrests of minority groups then i think ur both wrong.
That's a great suggestion, Alu. I never thought of it that way, and I'm going to agree with you. After all, I don't know if the country would support an act named after a crime boss - that would only make them push Nathan away. From what we've seen, Nathan brought the country together, so the only way for that to happen, IMO, would be for Linderman rise up as that "humanitarian" and gain the country's support, enough so that Nathan could create an act in his name, one that all Americans would support.
So why then when the news report on in the cafe, the reporter said there hasnt been this many arrests of people with abilitys since The Linderman Act was passed, so unless thats the way they celebrate humanitarians in amercia by making mass arrests of minority groups then i think ur both wrong.
So then, are you suggesting that Linderman got killed by DL in the future timeline in the same exact way as we saw on Monday night? I'm sticking to my guns, and to the ones that Alu provided me with, and saying that the death of Linderman was a change in the timeline.
I also don't believe that the persecution of specials was an act against just any minority group. The abilities that some specials possessed do pose a great threat to the safety and welfare of human society, as was seen by the explosion.
Apparently there are far more specials in the Heroes universe than we could have ever imagined, so it would have been very hard for Linderman/Nathan to hide them all, even if they wanted to. Furthermore, from what I can gather, the human population still outnumbers the special population. Thus, the only possible action that Linderman/Petrelli could have been taken was to work AGAINST their own kind and restrict their rights. For the handful of specials that Linderman and Nathan wanted to keep secret (which would be both of them, Angela, Peter, and probably Claire), they would do so. Certainly there was no way to persuade the majority of the human population that these specials were safe, as I mentioned, especially after one of them blew up 1/2 of NYC, killing millions.
Thus, it's my theory that Linderman/Nathan kept themselves, Angela, Peter, and Claire a secret (probably Matt, the Haitian, and a few others as well), while simultaneously working in the favor of the human population to bring an end to the spreading/breeding of specials so that casualties, such as the ones in NYC, could be "prevented" in the future, thus bringing the country together and giving Linderman/Nathan more power. I put the word 'prevented' in quotations because the explosion could have indeed been prevented had Nathan not gone along with the plan, but we must remember that Linderman becoming a "humanitarian" and Nathan rising to power was the whole point of the plan to begin with.
Thoughts?
Last edited by popkorn615 on Fri May 18, 2007 9:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
and i think its....hiro +ando coming back from the future telling nathan whats up...
Nice catch, Def . This was DEFINITELY a change in the timeline. Future Hiro told us so himself: "What are you doing here? You're not supposed to be here."
Thanks for sticking with me popkorn. None of us know what the linderman act is so a lot of assumptions can be made from it. But what we do know, is that, whether the act was good or bad, there had to be a reason why it was named after linderman. And this whole "Nathan just wanted to name it after linderman cuz he helped him rise to power" stuff just isn't cutting it. The act's name has gotta have meaning and i'm pretty sure in the present timeline the general public knows Linderman is a bad guy. (not like a villain, but more like a mob boss) I put humanitarian in quotes when i used it to refer to Linderman because he seems to be the only one who thought he'd be a humanitarian after all this. (Minus Angela Petrelli and whoever else we haven't yet who's part of their plan.) The act may have been for good or ill but in Linderman's eyes he was a humanitarian for what he did and apparently to the public as well.
Basically I'm going really in-depth into something that is pretty obvious. Linderman could not have died the way he did in the present timeline if the future was to be the same as it was in Five Years Gone.
And I totally love that theory Deftonesdea. I mean, that is so perfect. Hiro and Ando told Nathan what was up (Huge ripple effect from here), which in turn led nathan to help Nikki and DL find Linderman.
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. This was DEFINITELY a change in the timeline. Future Hiro told us so himself: "What are you doing here? You're not supposed to be here."
