Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:15 am Post subject: Phasers can displace matter
This Popkorny theory was sparked thanks to a recent post that Obsidian made having to do with the death of Linderman and what DL did with his arm/hand:
obsidianflame wrote:
DL phased his hand in, turned off phasing, and ripped his hand out of Linderman's head. When Linderman falls over, you can see a fist-sized hole in the back of his head, which wouldn't have been there if DL had phased his hand out.
All of the observations are right:
DL's hand was bloody, and there was a hole in the back of Linderman's head. This obviously means that DL phased his hand in, turned phasing off as Obsidian says, and pulled his hand out in order to create the hole.
However, there is one major inconsistency. If phasing was turned off when DL pulled his hand out, then shouldn't Linderman's head have jerked backwards? Logically, it should have. It's physics. While we know that the writers defy the laws of physics all of the time, it seems to me that the force of a hand ripping out of a head should have been visible in order to account for the hole..
While I am sure the writers are going to neglect this, I have an explanation. Phasers can DISPLACE matter. Meaning, the MOMENT DL turned phasing off in Linderman's head, the hole was created by his arm. Essentially, his arm 'stretched' out the skull and skin the moment the phasing was turned off. Thus, the hole was created before DL pulled his hand out.
This would also mean that a phaser cannot get trapped in a wall. If a phaser turns phasing 'off' while in a wall, I think a human-sized hole will be created in that area because of the matter displacement. Furthermore, what would happen if a phaser were to turn phasing off while phased inside the body of someone else? Since I believe a phaser can displace matter, I think that victim would explode once the phaser turned phasing off.
DL confirmed for us that he can't be harmed by fire/heat while phased (see the GN), which also means he can't be harmed by cold or temperature at all. Furthermore, phasing essentially means that his body is turning to nothingness, which implies that it has no mass and isn't 'matter' at that given moment. Thus, I'd argue that Sylar probably can't use TK on a phaser. So if Sylar can't use TK, cryo, radioactivity, or liquification on a phaser, than I argue that a phaser who has complete control of their ability could definitely survive, and maybe even win, a fight against Sylar. At the very least, the phaser can escape completely unharmed.
Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:47 am Post subject: Re: Phasers can displace matter
popkorn615 wrote:
This Popkorny theory was sparked thanks to a recent post that Obsidian made having to do with the death of Linderman and what DL did with his arm/hand:
obsidianflame wrote:
DL phased his hand in, turned off phasing, and ripped his hand out of Linderman's head. When Linderman falls over, you can see a fist-sized hole in the back of his head, which wouldn't have been there if DL had phased his hand out.
All of the observations are right:
DL's hand was bloody, and there was a hole in the back of Linderman's head. This obviously means that DL phased his hand in, turned phasing off as Obsidian says, and pulled his hand out in order to create the hole.
However, there is one major inconsistency. If phasing was turned off when DL pulled his hand out, then shouldn't Linderman's head have jerked backwards? Logically, it should have. It's physics. While we know that the writers defy the laws of physics all of the time, it seems to me that the force of a hand ripping out of a head should have been visible in order to account for the hole..
While I am sure the writers are going to neglect this, I have an explanation. Phasers can DISPLACE matter. Meaning, the MOMENT DL turned phasing off in Linderman's head, the hole was created by his arm. Essentially, his arm 'stretched' out the skull and skin the moment the phasing was turned off. Thus, the hole was created before DL pulled his hand out.
This would also mean that a phaser cannot get trapped in a wall. If a phaser turns phasing 'off' while in a wall, I think a human-sized hole will be created in that area because of the matter displacement. Furthermore, what would happen if a phaser were to turn phasing off while phased inside the body of someone else? Since I believe a phaser can displace matter, I think that victim would explode once the phaser turned phasing off.
DL confirmed for us that he can't be harmed by fire/heat while phased (see the GN), which also means he can't be harmed by cold or temperature at all. Furthermore, phasing essentially means that his body is turning to nothingness, which implies that it has no mass and isn't 'matter' at that given moment. Thus, I'd argue that Sylar probably can't use TK on a phaser. So if Sylar can't use TK, cryo, radioactivity, or liquification on a phaser, than I argue that a phaser who has complete control of their ability could definitely survive, and maybe even win, a fight against Sylar. At the very least, the phaser can escape completely unharmed.
Thoughts?
I completely agree with you PoPkorn615, Your theories are always correct, You are a genius
what if the writers new this and thats y they killed d.l. off knowing that sylar our lots off things wouldn't be able to kill him (except for the all mighty bullit)
One problem guys...back in season one, when he phased into Niki's (Jessica's) chest, what happened there? He phased into her, and did something. If he had un-phased like you are suggesting he did with Linderman, she should have had a big hole in he stomach.
But of course he could have phased just his wrist and maybe moved around organs? She is hardly injured from such a disruption...it just doesn't make much sense. To do something like that D.L. must have had a lot of control over his ability. Hey, he even phased a bullet through his head, almost automatically. So this can prove that the ability can have a passive quality.
The writers of Heroes aren't scientists, they just use the abilities to create exciting plots. They are thinking creatively, not scientifically. I really don't think they are thinking about concrete reasons and sciences behind the abilities. I mean common guys we are talking about "super heroes." Anything can happen if they want it too, it isn't supposed to make sense. So sometimes it's best to let things be, but of course its fun to make stuff up So keep up the ideas...
One problem guys...back in season one, when he phased into Niki's (Jessica's) chest, what happened there? He phased into her, and did something. If he had un-phased like you are suggesting he did with Linderman, she should have had a big hole in he stomach.
Check out that scene again, Omen. DL didn't phase into Jessica's chest, he phased THROUGH it, and his hand came out of her chest and grabbed her neck (while his arm was still in her chest). He unphased his hand, but NOT his arm. That's the only possible explanation as to how he could have been choking Jessica without getting any blood on the part of his arm that was inside of her.
The writers of Heroes aren't scientists, they just use the abilities to create exciting plots. They are thinking creatively, not scientifically. I really don't think they are thinking about concrete reasons and sciences behind the abilities. I mean common guys we are talking about "super heroes." Anything can happen if they want it too, it isn't supposed to make sense. So sometimes it's best to let things be, but of course its fun to make stuff up So keep up the ideas...
IMO, I totally think that the writers are thinking scientifically when brainstorming how to use abilities in the show, especially since some of them (i.e. Jeph Loeb) have been writing about heroes with super-powers for decades.
They knew that they wanted Hiro to face Peter in "Powerless," and that Hiro had to lose, so knowing that metal conducts electricity, they purposefully had Hiro put his sword to Peter's neck so that Hiro would be electrocuted when Peter zapped.
I guess that's more creative than scientific, but take this for example - one of the writers, at one point, also addressed the question about Nathan flying at super-speeds, and how it might be possible that his body creates some kind of resistance to coldness when he's flying at super-sonic speeds. Otherwise, Nathan would most likely get hypothermia by flying that fast and that high. It wasn't confirmed that Nathan can do this, but it was addressed, which means they're thinking about it. I think that the writers are definitely thinking both creatively and scientifically.
Not to go too off topic, but are there any quick thoughts? Maybe referencing some scientific things to DL's ability?
It sounds to me like a complimentary theory might be that of Philotics, which I have only read about in the Ender series by Orson Scott Card but I am convinced that he got the idea from somewhere else (quite likely from actual science). The concept is that matter as we know it is sort of like a hologram of an idea that exists in... well... sort of like non-space. So for something to "exist" as we know it, the *idea* for it has to exist in the "non-space." So a phaser would sort of... have a greater control over his or her philotic connection, and be able to change their location in 3-d space without breaking that connection. So if a phaser phases into a wall, the wall has a weaker philotic connection so the phaser displaces the wall rather than the other way around.
Check out that scene again, Omen. DL didn't phase into Jessica's chest, he phased THROUGH it, and his hand came out of her chest and grabbed her neck (while his arm was still in her chest). He unphased his hand, but NOT his arm. That's the only possible explanation as to how he could have been choking Jessica without getting any blood on the part of his arm that was inside of her.
sorry, but thats wrong. I just rewatched that scene several times to make sure, but DL phased inside of Niki (right about at her lungs from the way it looked to me) and made her pass out. So my guess is DL could make his hand grab things despite being phased which would explain why he had nothing on him even though he reached inside her and(i assume) squeezed her lung to make her passout.
The unfortunate thing here is that if he can grab things while he is phased then it discounts your theory on how his power works. So i propose that rahter than his body becoming nothingness like you suggested, the atomic bonds holding him together weaken allowing his molecules to rearange to squeeze through the small gaps in between the molecules of everything around him, and at will he can force the bonds to reform which would explain the hole in lindermans head while still accounting for his hand not having blood on it after reaching inside of Niki.
Check out that scene again, Omen. DL didn't phase into Jessica's chest, he phased THROUGH it, and his hand came out of her chest and grabbed her neck (while his arm was still in her chest). He unphased his hand, but NOT his arm. That's the only possible explanation as to how he could have been choking Jessica without getting any blood on the part of his arm that was inside of her.
sorry, but thats wrong. I just rewatched that scene several times to make sure, but DL phased inside of Niki (right about at her lungs from the way it looked to me) and made her pass out. So my guess is DL could make his hand grab things despite being phased which would explain why he had nothing on him even though he reached inside her and(i assume) squeezed her lung to make her passout.
I, too, just rewatched the scene, and AT FIRST, DL phases into her chest. Jessica becomes startled and yes, it seems like she loses her breath. However, Jessica does not pass out because DL's hand is in her chest. She passes out because he's choking her neck, and we clearly see him grabbing her neck while his arm is still phased through her chest.
It is not clear if she gasped because he was touching her lung or if she was just startled that he put his hand through her, but what is definitely clear is that she passed out because his hand was around her neck, not in her chest. We see three clear glimpses of this - a close up of him putting his hand around her neck, a far away shot of his arm through her chest and his hand around her neck, and another close up of his hand around her neck.
Another thing to point out - there's no blood located in our lungs (if there was, we'd obviously drown in our own blood). DL's fist could have momentarily been inside of Jessica's lung before he went to choke her, which would cause an obstruction and not allow her to breathe (cause her to gasp). Furthermore, this could be why he didn't have any blood on his hand.
I, too, just rewatched the scene, and AT FIRST, DL phases into her chest. Jessica becomes startled and yes, it seems like she loses her breath. However, Jessica does not pass out because DL's hand is in her chest. She passes out because he's choking her neck, and we clearly see him grabbing her neck while his arm is still phased through her chest.
It is not clear if she gasped because he was touching her lung or if she was just startled that he put his hand through her, but what is definitely clear is that she passed out because his hand was around her neck, not in her chest. We see three clear glimpses of this - a close up of him putting his hand around her neck, a far away shot of his arm through her chest and his hand around her neck, and another close up of his hand around her neck.
Another thing to point out - there's no blood located in our lungs (if there was, we'd obviously drown in our own blood). DL's fist could have momentarily been inside of Jessica's lung before he went to choke her, which would cause an obstruction and not allow her to breathe (cause her to gasp). Furthermore, this could be why he didn't have any blood on his hand.
My argument for a phaser's ability still stands
I just love how you say things happen like that, when of course thats not the truth. The phasing IS what made her passed out. You can check on any reference and it says the phasing is what incapacitated her. Which makes perfect sense, its why he phased into her in the 1st place: TO MAKE HER PASS OUT. Now, you could say she passed out from a choke, but Jessica isn't the kind of hero to pass out from something like that. She does have super strength, and with that comes some degree of resistance. But to phase in her for no reason would be stupid. D.L. does explain to Micah what he did, and says that Niki would be fine. So, he knew what he was doing with the phasing and it incapacitated her. He did grab her neck, but that was to hold her, I mean you can't hold someone while phasing... hey, why try and choke them with human abilities when you can stop them with superhuman, which is what HE DID....
You pulled that point out of thin air Popkorn615, everyone knows the phasing made her pass out... Furthermore, there is blood and liquids located all over our bodies, and there ARE veins in the lungs. The lungs transport oxygen from the atmosphere to the bloodstream. There are networks of capillaries all over the lungs. The reason they fill with blood is if something disrupts it like if they are pierced or even ruptured. So, don't say there would be no blood if he would move his hand around in the body, PLEASE....
I'd say that just the process of phasing through another person can be EXTREMELY uncomfortable and in extreme cases dangerous, like with Linderman.
Heres a new theory for ya... Phasing itself can cause disruption and used offensively, without being "turned-off."
Firstly, anything I've said in this thread is a theory, not proven, so no, I am not just saying that 'things happen like that.' Other sources can say what they want about the situation - most of those sources contain user-submitted information (even HeroesWiki). I've even edited stuff on such a site myself. Doesn't mean it's right. Unless it comes from a writer's mouth, or is directly said in the show, then it's a theory in my book.
I also never said that DL phased into her for no reason. He obviously phased into her and did something that would cause her to gasp, so he could very well have grabbed her lung as Komba suggested. So phasing incapacitated her at first, but what happened when DL's hand went to Jessica's neck? His hand wasn't touching her lung then, so why couldn't she break free from the grip? You said yourself that you can't physically hold something while phased, and I agree with that, so then if DL wasn't still affecting her somehow while his arm was still inside of her, why couldn't she struggle?
To bring in your theory, I'd argue that DL could have been holding her neck to keep her still, but that part of his arm (the part that was going through her lungs) was unphased, thus obstructing her from catching her breath. It wasn't the act of phasing that made her pass out, it was the obstruction to both her lung and neck, in my opinion.
And I didn't pull that point out of thin air. Again, it's a theory. There's a difference between calling something BS and just simply disagreeing with someone. I know we have veins and arteries all over our bodies, and even around our lungs, that carry blood and oxygen, but what I was saying was that there is no blood WITHIN the lungs themselves. Think of it this way - DL can phase any selective party of his body that he wants - his hand, part of his arm, a finger, probably even singular cells if he wanted to. And a lung is like a balloon. What I think happened is that DL phased his hand into Jessica's lung at first, and then unphased the parts of his hand that were inside her lung but not touching veins/arteries. Obviously, if he unphased parts of his hand that were touching veins/arteries, then according to my theory not only would DL have gotten blood on his hand, but those veins/arteries would have probably exploded, most likely killing Jessica.
Yeah, all that sounds really scientific, headache-worthy and meticulous, so when it comes down to it, I think the most likely reason that DL didn't have any blood on his hand was because the writers didn't exactly know how to treat his character's ability at the time (after all, it was the beginning of the season).
Personally, I think that DL had to have unphased something while inside of Jessica in order for her to gasp. While in phased mode, he is intangible. Well if you can't touch anything, or have anything touch you, then I argue that someone wouldn't be able to feel you phasing through their body. I just think that's how DL's ability works - it's either on or off, and you can control which parts of your body are phased and which ones aren't.
But you bring up an interesting theory in that phasing could affect a person without being turned off - maybe it paralyzes them, and furthermore maybe this 'paralysis' is the "level 2" to a phaser's ability.
Anyone else have any thoughts on the situation in "Better Halves"? Or about how the insides/outsides of a lung are structured (::hint hint:: Obsidian we need your assistance, lol)
A lung isn't like a balloon, it's like a billion microscopic balloons. (Each of those tiny tiny tiny balloons has a blood vessel associated with it, or gas exchange wouldn't occur; blood does not flow *in* the air sacs themselves, but the blood vessels *are* considered to be a part of the lung.) The "open spaces" inside a lung are *very very* small, so there's no chance of a hand just hanging out inside of a lung.
But.... did you see my philotic comment, PK? I think it might tie everything else in this thread together, if DL has a strong enough philotic connection that he can mostly leave this dimension to walk "through" walls, semi-leave this dimension so that his atoms can enter the empty space around Nikki's atoms, interacting with them without displacing them, and then pull himself fully back into this dimension, displacing Linderman's cells.
I think the biggest downside to this theory is that this power goes well beyond just phasing, although that could be explained by DL's lack of knowledge (a la Peter's relative impotence vs potential). If DL had control over his philotic connection, he should be able to repeatedly bring himself "back from the dead," sort of "reset" himself by phasing out and phasing back in as how he remembered himself, "float" in the air, and teleport.
Here's further explanation about Philotics, which according to Wikipedia, *did* originate with OSC. Whether it did or not, it seems to be a plausible theory to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philotic
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So keep up the ideas...
Furthermore, there is blood and liquids located all over our bodies, and there ARE veins in the lungs. The lungs transport oxygen from the atmosphere to the bloodstream. There are networks of capillaries all over the lungs. The reason they fill with blood is if something disrupts it like if they are pierced or even ruptured. So, don't say there would be no blood if he would move his hand around in the body, PLEASE....
Phasing itself can cause disruption and used offensively, without being "turned-off."
