I don't think they wanted to kill him by taking his powers away from him while he was 200' in the air. The last thing they needed to do was try to cover up the death of a well known wealthy man.
Nathan was standing right in front of the Haitian before he took off after being pursued by him and Bennett. In a similar pursuit between the Haitian and Peter in this episode, Peter couldn't fly or use powers because of the Haitian's presence. Nathan shouldn't have been able to fly as the Haitian's powers would have already been in effect. We've seen the effect happen even unintentionally and from over 100 ft. away back when Parkman tried to spy on Bennett in Volume 1. It has nothing to do with rich men falling 200 feet and everything to do with sloppy writing.
Sloppy writing? Have we (the viewer) ever been told to what extent the Haitan's powers are? NOPE. We have only been given clues to make our own conclusions. Perhaps the haitan can't neutralize powers like flight, fire, elemental etc. Unless we were told flatout in bold letters, "TO THE VIEWER: THE HAITAN CAN NEUTRALIZE ALL HERO POWERS WITHIN XX RANGE", then statements like those should be, well, not stated.
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:28 pm Post subject: C'mon guys, use your heads!!!
Why is everyone in such a rush to pull out the old "bad writing" card? The Haitian has said, and has been shown, to be loyal to Angela Petrelli FIRST...he said that specifically to Peter in the shipping crate, and allowing Nathan to fly is another illustration of it. No one at the Company knew specifically that Nathan's power was flight, so the Haitian could play dumb to HRG when he got away. The bigger question is "what the heck did Angela do for the Haitian that has him so indebted to her? As a spiritual, God loving man, I sense that perhaps he know something GOD about her we do not...
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: C'mon guys, use your heads!!!
Maxx Hitpoints wrote:
Why is everyone in such a rush to pull out the old "bad writing" card? The Haitian has said, and has been shown, to be loyal to Angela Petrelli FIRST...he said that specifically to Peter in the shipping crate, and allowing Nathan to fly is another illustration of it. No one at the Company knew specifically that Nathan's power was flight, so the Haitian could play dumb to HRG when he got away. The bigger question is "what the heck did Angela do for the Haitian that has him so indebted to her? As a spiritual, God loving man, I sense that perhaps he know something GOD about her we do not...
The Haitian's power and loyalty is just a small demonstration of a larger problematic trend. My bigger problems have to do with story pacing, rehashing, and ill-conceived or problematic plot elements, which I have discussed elsewhere in this thread.
To boil it down, you have a theory about the show and what's going on, and you've used that personal theory to respond to all of my criticisms, or at least those associated with the plot in that particular post.
i do have a theory. my original point was that you have a theory which affects your enjoyment of the show. i take the to mean that we now agree that theories are directly correlated to our outlook and enjoyment of the show.
i really wasnt hoping that my response would look like an attempt to try and respond to each of your points as you went along in an attempt to make a fool of you, or to just wildly stab out in annoyance without any attempt to understand your view (else id have just tried to dock you reputation points like you so flippantly did to me).
however. you still (with the exception of the above comment which im not sure you see the irony in) sidestep my original point. what i hoped i might accomplish from my last post was that you might consider that perhaps your unwillingness to accept an easy explanation is directly affecting your enjoyment of the show.
im not doubting your ability to reason, your ability to decide what you like or not, or doubting you in any regard - all im saying is, in a nutshell...
"sit, chill, and enjoy".
its not hard, really its not.
to quote someone in their recent replies to you
"why does it have to boil down to bad writing".
even if it is bad writing, who cares? sit and enjoy.
-A futuristic threat- geez wasnt the bomb enough
-8 Issac paintings - more paintings?? from when?
-4 months ago--why did we need another EP like S1 (6-months ago)?
-Hiro falls in love and cant keep her (ala charlie).
-Matt is still the cowardly lion, but getting better
-Peter is still confused (and lost)
-Nikki is fighting a NEW Personality.
-Sylar is still brain stealing, and not doing much but misleading maya.
-Claire is still being objective to HRG.
-umm Claire has a HS friend and is now back in cheerleading.
-and ummm Now Claire is the cure for the Future threat- Save the cheeleader save the world...geez isnt that getting old (save her blood now).
..and DL gets shot again..
Add in some newbies- Monica (which is alot like Charlie), Elle, and Maya-Alejandro to have side stories...and it ends up being a MESS.
This season doesnt have a focus. The mystery of HRG hunting down the heroes. Issacs direction to ONE threat. Ando and Hiro....I can go on.
It just feels like a crappy season..full of FILLERs.
take for example...HRG is protecting Claire and his family from the company...which he deems to be cruel, vicious, and "wont stop at anything to get claire".
But so far this season we see everyone at the company. Nikki for help. Nathan and Matt to help BOB. Mohinder helping BOB. we saw the Haitian again with the company, along with BOBs daughter ELLE. Peter turned himself over to the company for SELF help, BOB helps out MONICA...etc.
The company in my vision, doesnt look that evil now. Especially since BOB has offered to destroy the virus as MOH had asked him to (after monicas treatment).
S1 was more of HRG and the Haitian hunting down heroes, before claire became an issue w Sylar. That was freakin cool when u saw HRG or the Haitian, u knew something was going down. Sylar was an excellent storyline, that made u mad when u saw him--evil bstrd!. and Peters future explosion. All linked together, but never too far apart. It was great writing.
I have not seen that yet.
Good effects in some instances, but too many stories and directions. Adam-Peter. Hiro-Japan, Moh-Comp, HRG-Claire...on and on.
To be fair, the show doesn't have to have ONE unifying theme or vision to be a good show, BUT should have good character driven stories.
I think what a lot of people are pointing out, especially with this episode (which in my mind was only fair), is that the character driven aspect of the show is lacking...
Do any of you watch "Smallville"? Do you think they do a better job "driving their characters" and "plotting"? That's all "Heroes" would have to do to be a better show again....
OR
If you go down the road of one grand unified theory (ala "Lost" or even "Heroes" from last year) DO NOT REPEAT what you did last year. Show me something new.
Otherwise WE ARE ENJOYING the show, because pretty much everything else is crappy reality TV or the 10,000th version of CSI or something like it..... Can't wait for next summer when "Burn Notice" comes back....
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:34 am Post subject: The story is fine...
Many of the inconsistencies are being explained or (I believe) will be explained.
By the way, I love "Smallville", but I kind of fell out of schedule with it as I tend to have a small "dart league/drinking problem". If anyone wants to throw a good game of cricket, 301, or whatever, I'm there. Oh, but a frosty cold one is requred. LOL I sure could use some telekinesis on those nights.
Returning to the subject. I think a lot of our questions will be answered. A lot of the gaps filled. But this require patience young "grasshoppers". The problem is we live in a world where we need to have everything fit into "our" selfish schedules and timeframes. Just sit back and relax. ENJOY the show! Let TV work for you.... In the end lets criticize everything we "found" not to our liking, which -surprise- will most likely be different based on various opinions.
I just wish we were already in the 5th season the popularity was so immense that we would see HEROES - THE MOVIE. Peter is and will be the best super heroe EVER !
(did I say I like Smallville?)
i take the to mean that we now agree that theories are directly correlated to our outlook and enjoyment of the show.
Not exactly. What we agree on is that if every single thing YOU think about the show is correct, than it's not inconsistent (though it still may be, dare I say, bad).
I AM saying, however, it is HIGHLY unlikely that every single plot band-aid you've so carefully placed using your theory is actually in step with the intentions of the writers or the direction of the show. Your theory cannot, therefore, be exactly correct. It requires WAY too much leg work by the viewer and basically no forethought by the writers. You do the work for them by explaining away their miscues and mistakes.
Therefore, in my opinion, this show is (at this point) both inconsistent in its plot and generally speaking has become sub par.
I'm glad you're theory allows you to "sit back and enjoy," but I personally don't like to spend time ret-conning the show in my own mind just to make the elements I see on screen make sense together, especially when these explanations have a tendency to generate new, or even more complicated problems.
I don't accept your theory not because mine is different or I have an inability to "sit back and enjoy," but because I don't believe the writers had the vision or the where-with-all when they were writing Volume 2, based on what I've seen, to suggest that this is all one organic, well-constructed story that will get pulled together in the next 3 episodes.
Even if your theory and all it's accompanying points were ALL true, I'd still think it was bad writing for being disproportionately convoluted and cryptic, and it still wouldn't wash away the fact that Volume 2 should be called "Regurgitations" instead of "Generations" to account for all the rehashing.
Honestly, the first season was full of mystery and suspense. It was 2 or 3 arcs that came together brilliantly in one season-long arc. THAT'S what I expected from Volume 2, and I still hope it's what we get from Volume 3: Exodus.
I don't accept your theory not because mine is different or I have an inability to "sit back and enjoy," but because I don't believe the writers had the vision or the where-with-all when they were writing Volume 2, based on what I've seen, to suggest that this is all one organic, well-constructed story that will get pulled together in the next 3 episodes.
Even if your theory and all it's accompanying points were ALL true, I'd still think it was bad writing for being disproportionately convoluted and cryptic, and it still wouldn't wash away the fact that Volume 2 should be called "Regurgitations" instead of "Generations" to account for all the rehashing.
Honestly, the first season was full of mystery and suspense. It was 2 or 3 arcs that came together brilliantly in one season-long arc. THAT'S what I expected from Volume 2, and I still hope it's what we get from Volume 3: Exodus.
i didnt carefully place a plot band aid. it took me two seconds, its common sense, and required no leg work on my part.
i didnt have to patch up any holes in the last episode, i enjoyed it, first time out. iv only watched it once.
the thing is, your 'plot holes' arent plot holes, they are, as iv said repeatedly and will repeat this final time for emphasis, easily explained. with ease, meaning no mental thought required. its not hard.
i dont care if the writers have a grand plot or not, i couldnt give a monkeys. i enjoy the show as it comes.
my point, try to understand, please do: you DO care about the overall writing scheme, and your theories about the events in the shows directly affect your enjoyment, and you further and further prove this point with your comments.
lastly, you sidestepped me again.
you docked me points because i disagreed with you. i think you were wrong to do that. my comments did not show anything that you accused me of and i have since shown otherwise of what you accused me of. do what you like, the next time i choose to disagree with you, ill call the waaaambulance in time for your reply.
I don't accept your theory not because mine is different or I have an inability to "sit back and enjoy," but because I don't believe the writers had the vision or the where-with-all when they were writing Volume 2, based on what I've seen, to suggest that this is all one organic, well-constructed story that will get pulled together in the next 3 episodes.
Even if your theory and all it's accompanying points were ALL true, I'd still think it was bad writing for being disproportionately convoluted and cryptic, and it still wouldn't wash away the fact that Volume 2 should be called "Regurgitations" instead of "Generations" to account for all the rehashing.
Honestly, the first season was full of mystery and suspense. It was 2 or 3 arcs that came together brilliantly in one season-long arc. THAT'S what I expected from Volume 2, and I still hope it's what we get from Volume 3: Exodus.
i didnt carefully place a plot band aid. it took me two seconds, its common sense, and required no leg work on my part.
i didnt have to patch up any holes in the last episode, i enjoyed it, first time out. iv only watched it once.
the thing is, your 'plot holes' arent plot holes, they are, as iv said repeatedly and will repeat this final time for emphasis, easily explained. with ease, meaning no mental thought required. its not hard.
i dont care if the writers have a grand plot or not, i couldnt give a monkeys. i enjoy the show as it comes.
my point, try to understand, please do: you DO care about the overall writing scheme, and your theories about the events in the shows directly affect your enjoyment, and you further and further prove this point with your comments.
lastly, you sidestepped me again.
you docked me points because i disagreed with you. i think you were wrong to do that. my comments did not show anything that you accused me of and i have since shown otherwise of what you accused me of. do what you like, the next time i choose to disagree with you, ill call the waaaambulance in time for your reply.
I docked you points because you called many people in the room "wrong" for having an opinion different than yours on a topic that is primarily subjective before insulting the general group of dissatisfied fans by saying we just didn't get it. Not very fair, kind, or thoughtful.
We all love this show as much as you do, and as a point of fact you seem to be the only one who thinks my criticisms are short-sighted, weak, or otherwise unintelligent or undeserved. I criticize the show because I love it and want to see it grow. "Sitting back and enjoying" crap will only lead them to keep making crap instead of getting back to form.
You are arguing with me now because you are convinced that the "goodness" or "enjoyability" of the show can be proven objectively (a word you used earlier), that you can demonstrate to me and others how good the show is by explaining why the bad acting, poor writing, and plot rehashing is all part of some ingenious recipe for pop culture digestibility. A tasty television treat.
Well, it's not.
ONE FINAL TIME: My comments are not based on THEORIES, personal or otherwise, about the show.
My comments are about LITERARY CRITICISM and what are obvious lapses by the writers in terms of CONTINUITY. It has to do withWHAT HAS HAPPENED ALREADY, notWHAT I THINK WILL HAPPEN LATER.
Also, you can say there are no plot holes all you want, but it's clear that there are. Any time an explanation begins with, "Well maybe..." or "But if you ignore..." or "When you REALLY think about it..." it's a bad sign.
You say your explanations are simple and obvious, but to me, they seem weak. I am an articulate college grad on my way to law school, so I think I have the capability of intelligently disagreeing. Since I disagree and I (at least as far as I know) am not a complete idiot, then your explanations must be less clear cut and obvious than you think. As I said, it takes more mental leg work than you realize to pop out all the explanations you did earlier, and I doubt almost anyone agrees with you on all points.
If you want a list of plot holes, I'll gladly provide it. Of course, they are unlikely to satisfy you anymore than a list of Biblical contradictions would satisfy person who is convinced of its infallibility (sidenote: this is merely a point for comparison and in no way intended to insult anyone's religion or the Bible). They too can generate lists of explanations as to why this verse says DAVID killed Goliath and that verse says ELHANAN did it. I'm not responding point for point because you are convinced, even if a glaring error or problem jumps out in the show, that there is some way to explain it away. You operate from the premise that it all makes sense if you just think about it hard enough rather than placing the burden on the writers to write a story that makes sense on screen. No matter what I say, you'll find away that I'm wrong because it suits the type of devotion you have to the show. My challenges upset that devotion by calling it into question, which is why you are responding to me so adamantly. I, however, can still agree with many of your smaller points while disagreeing with the broad strokes of your argument. I don't need your support to know I'm a fan.
No, it's not about a THEORY. I could watch this entire season in one sitting, without taking time to guess about what's going to happen next, and it would still be terrible. It's like watching a terrible sequel to a great movie in which a new team of writers attempts to maximize the profitability of the second film by using a bunch of things that worked the first time around, only this time the results are tragic.
Also, belittling me for caring about the quality and integrity of a show that was once overflowing with both is hardly unsettling to me. Yeah, so I started watching this show because it was HIGH QUALITY, and you think I'm no fun because I don't passively accept a crappier version of the same show. You think I'd be better off to just enjoy the crap just like I enjoyed the caviar, pretending they taste exactly the same.
Well, they don't.
If this show had been weak all along, then I'd say, "Hey, who are we to start raising expectations?" But instead, what you seem to be saying is, "In order to enjoy Heroes, you just have to lower your expectations that you set based on Volume 1." No thank you.
With Kring even embarrassed by Volume 2, I fail to see why I should still love it the way I loved Volume 1. Kring did well with that. He didn't with this. He and I (apparently) agree on that point. I'm sorry if that bothers you.
Finally, I'm not whining because of you. I'm whining because the show is bad. Bring on the "waaaambulance" if it means Volume 3: Exodus won't suck.
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