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Hercules67
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 Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| HeroAddict wrote: |
My question is if Bob is such a mistro of the orchestra of drama as everyone believes, why wouldn't he just make Molly look for Claire?
I mean, it seems like a WHOLE LOT of unnecessary trouble to find Claire if all these stories are actually in pursuit to finding Claire.
Grab a gun, stick it to Matt's head and say, "FIND CLAIRE BENNET OR I'LL KILL MATT"
Molly already worked with the company for a while so I doubt it'd be weird to find somebody on the companies command. I agree there are some plot holes, but I am banking on the writers creating a nicely threaded ending that ties everything together. |
Because Molly has been in a Nightmare induced comma until "yesterday" in show time.... |
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CyDog
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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Open question:
The new heroes are showing Similar abilities as the old ones?
IMHO:
 NO, for the most part the pwers that West has are nothing like the one on Nathan, since Natan can go Hyper speed, ehile West kinda 'flotes'.
And is Adam IMMORTAL? |
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Talmidi Orha
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| karinbouttheheroes wrote: |
| Maya & Alej.-I liked seeing what happened, to start them running. I DO wish that we had more time to see there story (possibly could be better, if we werent rushed?) |
RUSHED?! How long does it take to get out of Mexico anyway? Apparently 4 FREAKING MONTHS and 7 FREAKING EPISODES!
Somehow, however, it only takes them 2 or 3 episodes to get all the way from the Texas/Mexico border to New York City. Whaaaaaa...?
| karinboutthheheroes wrote: |
| I think that we will find out that Adam is Peter's father, that is why Peter is taking so much stock in what Adam says. (Just my opinion) |
Peter's ageless father who was trapped in a holding cell for 30+ years? Adam was in that cell before Peter was ever in Angela. It would be a tough stretch for Takezo Kensei to be Arthur Petrelli.
Last edited by Talmidi Orha on Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Talmidi Orha
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Hercules67 wrote: |
| HeroAddict wrote: |
My question is if Bob is such a mistro of the orchestra of drama as everyone believes, why wouldn't he just make Molly look for Claire?
I mean, it seems like a WHOLE LOT of unnecessary trouble to find Claire if all these stories are actually in pursuit to finding Claire.
Grab a gun, stick it to Matt's head and say, "FIND CLAIRE BENNET OR I'LL KILL MATT"
Molly already worked with the company for a while so I doubt it'd be weird to find somebody on the companies command. I agree there are some plot holes, but I am banking on the writers creating a nicely threaded ending that ties everything together. |
Because Molly has been in a Nightmare induced comma until "yesterday" in show time.... |
She's already out of the coma before Mohinder is given the assignment to find Claire. |
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Blufyre77
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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quote from Cydog:
[Open question:
The new heroes are showing Similar abilities as the old ones?
IMHO:
NO, for the most part the pwers that West has are nothing like the one on Nathan, since Natan can go Hyper speed, ehile West kinda 'flotes'.]
 OMG stop saying that! What do you think flight is? West just isn't in such a big hurry as Nathan. Difference in flight speed has nothing to do with having a separate power! It would kind of suck if West could only float like 2 mph and Nathan could zoom supersonic only! It doesn't make sense! |
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Av3n93r
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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i really doubt that DL even died
watch the scene again.. the blood came from the opposit side
i guess that the guy who wanted to kill DL is the one who died
but by who and why i got no clue so far |
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sweetL
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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it appears, in my absence, i have been totally slammed.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| You clearly don't understand (or don't want to understand) what we're saying. |
i hope to rectify that you think this of me.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| This has nothing to do with Tim Kring's vision for the show and us getting all irritated because his brilliant plan is different than ours. |
ours? i wasnt talking about everyone. and you're wrong, it DOES have everything to do with that, as ill illustrate.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| The problem is that Tim Kring and his writers really have no plan, and that leads to BAD writing. Heroes is not a complete story like Battlestar Galactica or LOST, and it's really starting to show. It's a series of vignettes that hopefully center around a common theme. |
well spotted. we knew this from the first series. it was commented on then. its not the best written of shows, and even people who really like it (im one of them), will probably agree with that.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
Tim Kring clearly doesn't know exactly where he's going with much of this. A few things:
1. Last year, Kring said he had ideas for up through 5 seasons of episodes.
2. Kring said the show would not have many if any characters that stretched across seasons, but that it would be a rotating cast.
3. Kring later revoked his assertion in #2 when he suddenly realized that fans liked the characters we already had on the show (and with that realization, his vision for the show changed).
4. Kring himself has admitted that this season was poorly thought out and poorly executed. He as much as said that the romances suck and the first arc has been a total snooze. |
right... so kring thinks its bad, so you can moan about it being bad, to further add to the moaning going on?
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| And as everyone has said, the total lack of consistency with regard to character powers is ridiculous. It's almost like an homage to actual long-running comic books who constantly change authors and, thus, have canonical inconsistencies and plot holes that can only be explained away with even MORE ridiculous writing (er, Crisis on Infinite Earths, anyone?). |
first, you're wrong, not EVERYONE has said it. second, for practically every inconsistensy someone spots, there is an easily explained reason. wether they like the fact that its easily explained or not (perhaps because the writing is simple, or bad, whatever) is down to the person who sees the problem. (we'll begin to see this from now....)
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| Why can the Haitian block Parkman unknowingly from a football field away while Nathan can escape by flying away when the Haitian is about 5 feet from him? |
who said it was unknowingly? id point out that the examples given show that its an intentional, active effort on his part. remember, hrg knew matt was in the car park.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| Why doesn't Peter read more minds when he knows that he's potentially surrounded by liars? ("He's an idiot" is NOT an adequate answer.) |
its not an involuntary ability. in the same way that he isnt constantly flying, isnt constantly blowing up, and isnt constantly shooting electricity out of his hands. second to this, he is RUBBISH with using his powers... or hasnt had enough opportunity to develop his skills with the powers. he spent those four months, not practising his powers, but killing them. remember the effort it took for him to phase? (further evidence about the dl effort-involved phasing issue)
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| Why was a phaser shot on three separate occasions in this show (twice in a completely unnecessary way)? |
first, because bad things happen to good people. second, as we have seen.. it takes him some EFFORT to do it. if it easy to switch on an off in time for a bullet to skip through him, then why did he have to pause to put his hand through glass to save a woman burning in a car?
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| Why would Niki attack Sylar at Kirby Plaza when she had no idea who either Peter or Sylar were to begin with? Also, she hit Sylar with a goddamn parking meter using super strength and Sylar was barely even injured. I know it's T.V., but if you're gonna have someone like Claire, who constantly has bones sticking out and ruins all her cheerleader outfits with bloodstains, it would seem to follow logically that other people without this power could be seriously injured on this show from things like, I don't know, being clocked at high speed with a large, heavy stick of metal. |
sylar has telekenisis. weve seen people can implement this quickly... like peter did with claude. for someone as expert with it as sylar... stopping something hitting him too hard, wouldnt be a big push.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| And let's not forget time travel, in which a history-altering romp in feudal Japan leads to no changes in the present while an altruistic single action by a politician alters the entire "Five Years Gone" future. |
again, who said its history-altering? the evidence we have seen would show that it ISNT history altering.. nothing has in fact changed.... because maybe, just maybe the way it happened with hiro... IS THE WAY IT HAPPENED. 
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| This has nothing to do with my expectations or desires and everything to do with what does or doesn't make any sense. I enjoy a good, fun story as much as the next person, but not at the expense of plot holes and drivel. |
the problem is, your expectations are being moulded every time you think about 'what ifs'. it has everything to do with your expectations and desires. you want to not see holes. you are SEEING holes because you want to believe that its more complicated than it is.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| Remember Nathan flying into Kirby Plaza and responding to a line by Claire he could not possibly have heard while he was flying toward her (the sentence literally began when Nathan was still out of sight behind a building in the far distance)? |
one of the hardly's.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| Or how about Elle and Bob side-stepping out of a hospital hallway in perfect harmony right as Peter passed? It reminded me of a vaudevillian comedy duo. And, again, how did they know that Peter would bring Nathan to a hospital, and THAT hospital specifically? |
very good point. ... a very good question. another of the hardlys? cant think of how theyd know. they didnt have molly... but they did have parkman senior.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| Why was Bob even in NY? |
because the bomb didnt go off.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| Didn't Linderman say the company was evacuating? |
he thought the bomb was going to go off.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| Weren't they banking on the bomb exploding? |
yes. but it didnt.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| Season 2 could have added depth, but instead all it seems to have done is make Season 1 look worse, as if it was all building toward something and they ran out of ideas. That's why we get recycled storylines (D.L. gets shot while Niki struggles with a split personality, Claire is a cheerleader competing with the school witch queen, Peter is naive and confused, there's a looming evil future that someone accidentally jumps into, Isaac's painting are road signs to bad times, etc.). |
earlier you said that kring decided to keep characters on for the sake of the viewers. this is what happens when you keep a character on. people dont change much, you know... i dont think nathans storyline is recycled, neither is angelas, neither is hrgs, neither is the hatians, neither is peters, neither is hiros, i mean i could go on, but youll only say that its down to my perspective anyway. which would be right, because this is my opinion.
obviously you're going to disagree with me, i just wanted everyone else to know that i dont disagree with you because i dont UNDERSTAND what you, or everyone else is on about.
of course, as someone rightly pointed out, its wrong for me to say
a) they're wrong
b) you're wrong
because its objective, down to perspective, opinion, and expectation. it was wrong of me to say that. however, i stand by what else i said for the reasons above.
the fact is, i disagree with you, BECAUSE i understand your point. and i think you're totally and utterly wrong and only ruining it for yourself.
sit back, relax, and take it as it comes, and youll enjoy it a lot more. who cares if the writers have a GRAND plan or not? like i said, itll go where the writers want it to go, and thats that.
 for voice of reason.
Last edited by sweetL on Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:01 pm; edited 6 times in total |
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KombatKoala
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Av3n93r wrote: |
i really doubt that DL even died
watch the scene again.. the blood came from the opposit side
i guess that the guy who wanted to kill DL is the one who died
but by who and why i got no clue so far |
eh, sorry to say but you need to rewatch the scene, the guy who shoots DL shoots him then runs away grinning. It was DL that was shot there. i know it sucks and its an extremely stupid way for someone who can phase through things to die, but DL is dead. |
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the voice of reason
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
Also, after shooting HRG, erasing his memory, and helping Claire escape, why would the Company take the Haitian back (as we see they did in "Four Months Ago")? HRG has since been on a rampage that took Ivan's life and has involved the uncovering and then destroying of Isaac's lost series of paintings. They no he means to "bring down the Company." Mohinder and Niki now have to go after Claire because the company doesn't know where exactly she might be. This is all the Haitian's fault. How can they take him back? I guess you could postulate that maybe because Angela and Linderman were actually working together all along, but this in turn creates more problems. One example: Why would Linderman pursue Claire or Nathan if Angela spends her time helping fight against that pursuit?
. |
What we see of the company is that it was once united and now fractured - perhaps. So for every reason they do something, there is also someone seemingly pulling in a nother direction from the company. Or perhaps it is all misdirection for something larger as Nathan seems to indicate ("always half truths and misdiretion").
I suspect they need the Haitain. For one, he has the strongest power of all, surpressing other abilities. If you think about it, it makes him the strongest of everyone. I also get the feeling they use something from the Haitain (perhaps blood) to develop this virus (and pills). So they need him. He likely developed it as part of being a lab rat and then shipped to Haiti so he wouldn't effect others in the company. I also get the feeling this is why they keep Adam alive as they know his blood can heal (I"m sure they know how to kill Adam - refer to Isaac's painting of a dead Claire in Homecoming with her gut ripped out from Sylar). They keep him for the own selfish reasons. Know with Adam gone, they need Claire.
And they are using half information to convince Mohinder to bring in Claire peacefully without implicating themselves. Remember, you can never believe anyone ever involved in the Company. They have hidden agendas, all of them.
My biggest question in the show is Charles Deveaux, who to me looked like he was plotting against the company once he realised what they were on about. Any did he die form the virus?
Also, I"m expecting an appearance from Peter and Nathan's dad sometime in the future. Would be sweet. |
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CyDog
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Av3n93r wrote: |
i really doubt that DL even died
watch the scene again.. the blood came from the opposit side
i guess that the guy who wanted to kill DL is the one who died
but by who and why i got no clue so far |
So what in the begginig of Season 2 Mikah and Nikki whent to Who's grave????
HE died because he was not given the opportunity to Phase,
 Maybe he fake his own dead so that Nikki can cash his Fireman insurance check... 
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CyDog
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Blufyre77 wrote: |
OMG stop saying that! What do you think flight is? West just isn't in such a big hurry as Nathan. Difference in flight speed has nothing to do with having a separate power! It would kind of suck if West could only float like 2 mph and Nathan could zoom supersonic only! It doesn't make sense! |
Given  they are in the same league, but what about Claire and Adam?
...
Again what was Kaito's Power? or Charles Deveroux?
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sweetL
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| id say that charles' power is dream-based.... kaito? dont know. nothing that has the possibility of violence tho, given that he asks for a sword... he wants to defend himself, and cant, without a sword. |
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Av3n93r
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| KombatKoala wrote: |
| eh, sorry to say but you need to rewatch the scene, the guy who shoots DL shoots him then runs away grinning. It was DL that was shot there. i know it sucks and its an extremely stupid way for someone who can phase through things to die, but DL is dead. |
oh sorry my bad the guy ran away yeah
but watch it again.. !!!!!
the blood came from the guy side n i dont think that they r too stupid to do such a bug...
i guess the blood has something to tell us that DL isnt the dead man
and for the grave its pretty possible that its faked |
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Maxx Hitpoints
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:44 pm Post subject: Yo Sweetl... |
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Nice Rant!!! While I admire your ability to go on for a full page, gotta let you know that we uberfans are pretty adamant about the things we see...don't internalize, use a rant to make your angle look good...humiliate through knowledge!
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Talmidi Orha
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| sweetL wrote: |
it appears, in my absence, i have been totally slammed.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| You clearly don't understand (or don't want to understand) what we're saying. |
i hope to rectify that you think this of me.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| This has nothing to do with Tim Kring's vision for the show and us getting all irritated because his brilliant plan is different than ours. |
ours? i wasnt talking about everyone. and you're wrong, it DOES have everything to do with that, as ill illustrate.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| The problem is that Tim Kring and his writers really have no plan, and that leads to BAD writing. Heroes is not a complete story like Battlestar Galactica or LOST, and it's really starting to show. It's a series of vignettes that hopefully center around a common theme. |
well spotted. we knew this from the first series. it was commented on then. its not the best written of shows, and even people who really like it (im one of them), will probably agree with that.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
Tim Kring clearly doesn't know exactly where he's going with much of this. A few things:
1. Last year, Kring said he had ideas for up through 5 seasons of episodes.
2. Kring said the show would not have many if any characters that stretched across seasons, but that it would be a rotating cast.
3. Kring later revoked his assertion in #2 when he suddenly realized that fans liked the characters we already had on the show (and with that realization, his vision for the show changed).
4. Kring himself has admitted that this season was poorly thought out and poorly executed. He as much as said that the romances suck and the first arc has been a total snooze. |
right... so kring thinks its bad, so you can moan about it being bad, to further add to the moaning going on?
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| And as everyone has said, the total lack of consistency with regard to character powers is ridiculous. It's almost like an homage to actual long-running comic books who constantly change authors and, thus, have canonical inconsistencies and plot holes that can only be explained away with even MORE ridiculous writing (er, Crisis on Infinite Earths, anyone?). |
first, you're wrong, not EVERYONE has said it. second, for practically every inconsistensy someone spots, there is an easily explained reason. wether they like the fact that its easily explained or not (perhaps because the writing is simple, or bad, whatever) is down to the person who sees the problem. (we'll begin to see this from now....)
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| Why can the Haitian block Parkman unknowingly from a football field away while Nathan can escape by flying away when the Haitian is about 5 feet from him? |
who said it was unknowingly? id point out that the examples given show that its an intentional, active effort on his part. remember, hrg knew matt was in the car park.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| Why doesn't Peter read more minds when he knows that he's potentially surrounded by liars? ("He's an idiot" is NOT an adequate answer.) |
its not an involuntary ability. in the same way that he isnt constantly flying, isnt constantly blowing up, and isnt constantly shooting electricity out of his hands. second to this, he is RUBBISH with using his powers... or hasnt had enough opportunity to develop his skills with the powers. he spent those four months, not practising his powers, but killing them. remember the effort it took for him to phase? (further evidence about the dl effort-involved phasing issue)
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| Why was a phaser shot on three separate occasions in this show (twice in a completely unnecessary way)? |
first, because bad things happen to good people. second, as we have seen.. it takes him some EFFORT to do it. if it easy to switch on an off in time for a bullet to skip through him, then why did he have to pause to put his hand through glass to save a woman burning in a car?
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| Why would Niki attack Sylar at Kirby Plaza when she had no idea who either Peter or Sylar were to begin with? Also, she hit Sylar with a goddamn parking meter using super strength and Sylar was barely even injured. I know it's T.V., but if you're gonna have someone like Claire, who constantly has bones sticking out and ruins all her cheerleader outfits with bloodstains, it would seem to follow logically that other people without this power could be seriously injured on this show from things like, I don't know, being clocked at high speed with a large, heavy stick of metal. |
sylar has telekenisis. weve seen people can implement this quickly... like peter did with claude. for someone as expert with it as sylar... stopping something hitting him too hard, wouldnt be a big push.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| And let's not forget time travel, in which a history-altering romp in feudal Japan leads to no changes in the present while an altruistic single action by a politician alters the entire "Five Years Gone" future. |
again, who said its history-altering? the evidence we have seen would show that it ISNT history altering.. nothing has in fact changed.... because maybe, just maybe the way it happened with hiro... IS THE WAY IT HAPPENED.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| This has nothing to do with my expectations or desires and everything to do with what does or doesn't make any sense. I enjoy a good, fun story as much as the next person, but not at the expense of plot holes and drivel. |
the problem is, your expectations are being moulded every time you think about 'what ifs'. it has everything to do with your expectations and desires. you want to not see holes. you are SEEING holes because you want to believe that its more complicated than it is.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| Remember Nathan flying into Kirby Plaza and responding to a line by Claire he could not possibly have heard while he was flying toward her (the sentence literally began when Nathan was still out of sight behind a building in the far distance)? |
one of the hardly's.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| Or how about Elle and Bob side-stepping out of a hospital hallway in perfect harmony right as Peter passed? It reminded me of a vaudevillian comedy duo. And, again, how did they know that Peter would bring Nathan to a hospital, and THAT hospital specifically? |
very good point. ... a very good question. another of the hardlys? cant think of how theyd know. they didnt have molly... but they did have parkman senior.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| Why was Bob even in NY? |
because the bomb didnt go off.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| Didn't Linderman say the company was evacuating? |
he thought the bomb was going to go off.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| Weren't they banking on the bomb exploding? |
yes. but it didnt.
| Talmidi Orha wrote: |
| Season 2 could have added depth, but instead all it seems to have done is make Season 1 look worse, as if it was all building toward something and they ran out of ideas. That's why we get recycled storylines (D.L. gets shot while Niki struggles with a split personality, Claire is a cheerleader competing with the school witch queen, Peter is naive and confused, there's a looming evil future that someone accidentally jumps into, Isaac's painting are road signs to bad times, etc.). |
earlier you said that kring decided to keep characters on for the sake of the viewers. this is what happens when you keep a character on. people dont change much, you know... i dont think nathans storyline is recycled, neither is angelas, neither is hrgs, neither is the hatians, neither is peters, neither is hiros, i mean i could go on, but youll only say that its down to my perspective anyway. which would be right, because this is my opinion.
obviously you're going to disagree with me, i just wanted everyone else to know that i dont disagree with you because i dont UNDERSTAND what you, or everyone else is on about.
of course, as someone rightly pointed out, its wrong for me to say
a) they're wrong
b) you're wrong
because its objective, down to perspective, opinion, and expectation. it was wrong of me to say that. however, i stand by what else i said for the reasons above.
the fact is, i disagree with you, BECAUSE i understand your point. and i think you're totally and utterly wrong and only ruining it for yourself.
sit back, relax, and take it as it comes, and youll enjoy it a lot more. who cares if the writers have a GRAND plan or not? like i said, itll go where the writers want it to go, and thats that.
for voice of reason. |
I see where you're coming from, but consider this:
You just responded with a huge string of points. Each point is truly debatable... and these are for simple plot questions. It raises a red flag that simple questions about the natural flow of the plot are HIGHLY debatable.
You have made responses to my points that although I do not agree with most of them, they are certainly well considered. Although I do not, as I said, agree with many of your points, I'm not going to respond point-for-point unless you ask me to.
But think, how likely is it that every single one of these plot band-aids that you've developed as explanations for inconsistent or rehashed or simply bad writing in Volume 2 is what the writers were actually thinking at the time? Is it more likely that you're right in every single one of your rebuttals, all of which are necessary to glue this mess together, or is it more likely that this show is suffering from bad writing and bad decision making? With Kring acknowledging that mistakes have been made, I imagine that even he might disagree with at least some of your points.
Yes, with your personal mindset about the development of the show, you've managed to explain away everything I've pointed out with some sort of explanation, but you have to go a long way beyond what is seen on screen and in the GN to get to where you are in terms of your Heroes mindset. It may or may not be wrong, but most people who watch the show do not construct all of these same opinions as a natural consequence of paying attention to the plot.
To boil it down, you have a theory about the show and what's going on, and you've used that personal theory to respond to all of my criticisms, or at least those associated with the plot in that particular post. You didn't respond at all to a whole host of other points from elsewhere in this thread, and you also overlooked my points, which are strong, about how the Volume 2 plot is by-and-large a rehash of Volume 1.
On the issues to which you did respond, however, unless your personally constructed theory about what's going on is exactly correct, then most of what I said still stands. |
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