Hiro looks really intense when he is charging and isn't a complete moron so I think it is safe to say that he was slowing time down while charging. During the standoff, earlier in the episode with sylar, ando and hiro, it was established that Hiro was unsure if he could take the full time he needs to stop time before sylar could do something. Understandably he tries a different strategy in this confrontation and charges sylar which wouldn't really alarm sylar until hiro slowed time enough that he couldn't react. I thought the fact that Hiro slowed time was fairly obvious as this is the only way he would have been able to impale sylar without him so much as flenching away before being struck, instead of casually waving hiro aside with TK. I guess they should have cut to a shot of Sylar just begining to react in slow motion or maybe flash a big message over the image indicating that Hiro is slowing time down for those who might think the slowed motion was done for dramatic effect,
As for the rest of the fight and aftermath, Bennets arm/shoulder got hurt when thrown by TK, you see him struggling to lift the gun let alone point it. Parker gets there when Peter is getting choked and does the only thing he could do shoot at sylar, which worked to some extent durring there first meeting earlier in the season when Sylar's TK was not as strong as now. Sylar is avoiding the use of Ted's power on peter as he still hopes to cut his head open and steal his power. Sylar is playing it smart and keeping Peter stationary and occupied using his less developed TK to fight against sylar's TK stranglehold, this way peter will not be able to dissapear on ylar. Meanwhile bashing him will allow sylar to observe the healing power and determine if something like injuring Peter before cutting his head will give him time to cut it open. He likely doesn't attempt to freeze peter since his brain world not be working for sylar to understand it. Peter, at the start has only a weaker TK ability as a weapon, since he does not dare use ted's power. Peter hasn't gotten Hiro's power to work since the train(hey its a hard power) and Peter's invisibility, flight, and mind reading abilities, his only advantage are useless if Sylar holds him still as he did, having already seen invisibility. The new Nikki should be able to see that Parker was hurt by sylar through the glass doors and will have been told about the need for them to get away because of sylar by mohinder on their way out of the building. So yes, she would have a reason to step in on the fight.
The different actions and timing of interactions of Hiro and Ando with sylar then in the other timeline, the conflict between Peter and Sylar which sets off peter as the bomb would not occur at the same time.
Also have you guys not watched all of the episodes where everyone was paranoid about Ted possibly becoming a Nuke if shot? Claire shooting him and hopefully lodging a bullet in the part of his brain that keeps the healing from happening is not a full proof plan, Nathan's was.
I totally admire and appreciate your thorough and intense desire to justify all of those points. It's clear you really love the show like I do. I really don't want to go through and give a rebuttal to each and every one suffice to say that every argument is a stretch, with exception to the Bennet injured arm thing. That after watching it again makes sense, but it's a really small point. If Hiro stopped time (and I've watched it a bunch of times to make sure) it sure doesn't look like he did. Of course it makes sense for him TO stop time while trying to kill a villian who can kill you in a hundred different ways but I do not think the writers had it in their collective mind that that is what was happening. As you said, they would have used some sort of filmatic devises to show that Hiro was using his power. They didn't do that because they weren't thinking that. Either way, it's poor writing cause if he was slowing time, they should have made it more clear and if he wasn't he should have been. Bottom line, it's an illconceived and poorly executed moment in a likewise scene in a likewise episode. Still a great series. The last episode doesn't cancel out the entire season, it just leaves a sour taste in all our mouths. OR at least, in my opinion it should. All of the things you said, assuming that you are right on all of them and that's a big assumtion, were not, in any way, or at the VERY least in a very poor way conveyed to the audience. You need to tell the story correctly. If you are spoonfeeding your audience to much that is bad, but it's just as bad to make your audience have to assume too much. If you are saying that they wanted us to make all those assumptions you described above than that is poor writing, especially when you stop to consider how many other much more exciting and satifying ways they COULD have gone with it.
As far as the fight. Sure, maybe Sylar holding and choking Peter with TK is distracting him enough for him not to use his powers. But even if that were true, that's a VERY poor choice by the writers. The writers of Scarface could have had Al Pacino do the smart thing and slip out the window and survive rather than gunning down 20 guys in his mansion Or Roy Sheider, Richard Dreyfuss and Robert Shaw could've done the "right" thing and left to get a bigger boat in Jaws, but that's not entertaining. So even if your rationalizations where spot-on correct, and I don't think they are, they certainly are not the best way to go, entertainment-wise or artistically. And yes, the fight WAS important! The fight was a climax building up over a whole season! It was the pinnacle of good vs evil! A wonderfully conceived villian and a really great hero in an epic final struggle is not a new concept! There was nothing really epic about that fight! And not only is it just sensible to have and epic battle liek that but the writers forshadowed it more than once. In Five Years Gone Sylar and Peter square off against each other in the hallway, it look slike there is going to be just a bad-ass superhero battle and then, bam the door closes! The battle is raging in the hallway but we can't see it and I thought, "Wow, they are doing an AWESOME job of building this fight up for us!" I liked it cause they were teasing us. And I think we can all agree that teasing is only cool if, at the end, there is some payoff, otherwise we get really grouchy! Am I right?
So you can justify it all you want but the bottom line is, the episode last night fizzled right when it should have exploded. Funny that it centered around an explotion. I thought it was funny also that two times Claire asks her dad, "Do you have a plan?" I felt like she was us and Bennet were the writers and we're just like, "Um, you guys know what your doing right? Cause it doesn't seem like it." So yeah, what should have happened last night just didn't and there is no way around it, regardless of what they have up their sleeves for next season.
I'm glad the episode worked for you and you enjoyed it but it's just hard for me to imagine a true fan of Heroes REALLY loving that finale cause I saw, and I think alot of other people saw, how good it COULD have beenand it just wasn't. All those things you described justifying the characters actions (or more importantly their inactions) could have been done in the context of a better fight, tighter diologue, and a more consistant storyline.
Hi man, I appreciate your point of view and the list you compiled but I have to say, I can't believe you could make that list of the two's abilities and then say that you don't see how an epic battle between them would be possible! First of all that list you compiled is comprised only of the abilities we KNOW of. Peter has the abilities of every "super" person he has been around and when the invisible man was training him he told him to "reach into that file cabinet of yours and pull something out." Like in Isaac's loft when he seemd to use some sort of sonic jolt with his voice to knock isaac over. He probably has countless abilities he doesn't even know about but will come out in stressful situations, when he needs them - like, say, an epic battle with Sylar. Sylar on the other hand... well, we have no idea how many people he killed and what kind of abilities they had. For instance, we don't really know where or how he got the ability to saw with his finger, right? But entirely for the sake of argument, even if they were limited to the powers you listed or the powers we know of, that still could be an unbeliavble battle! Peter could be flying around avoiding ice blasts and launching sonic attacks. He could land on that big red thing and Sylar could melt it and telekinetically throw a bunch of mailboxes at him which peter, recovering after the fall saws in half or stops in midair or catches with super strength or changes into a bunch of penguins! And so on and so on. That's my point! Basically they could have done anything in the world! They'd brilliantly established a scenereo where they could have pulled anything at all out of their creative hat and it would have been narratively justified and instead peter punched him a few times POSSIBLY with superstrength. They let us down in my opinion and they totally didn't need to. Plus, Heroes is a HUGE show for NBC and wildly popular so you can't plead that they couldn't get the budget to do it right. Nor can you blame limited time to plan since they took MONTHS off for hiatus. No excuses. They dropped the ball big time. Even if they give us the battle next season, it's too late - it still should have happened last night.
Alright. First off, I gotta thank you for reading the post. Clearly, the battle was potentially great-- as explained in that scenario you cooked up. But the one thing that I stand by is that Peter couldn't possibly have used any subconcious powers available to him. Think about it, if you were under *that* much pressure-- saving the world, the people around you and killing this bad guy-- would you be able to think about what you're gonna do next?
I mean, it's like competitive video gaming. Sometimes, when you know that the guy you're playing against is really good, you choke! Your hands get wobbly, and you don't think straight. The guy's rep affects your psyche, and you freeze while you're playing. That's what happened to Peter, he choked. He was wondering how he was gonna end it, but couldn't think straight, or pull out any of his powers, so he started beating the guy up.
Just think about it. Peter chokes, freezes on the instance where he has to be a hero. He can't use the powers available to him, so he starts beating the guy up. Later on, the pressure gets to him, and the radiation goes berserk. Yeah, Peter was about to destroy half of New York because he couldn't keep his cool.
And I'm guessing that Sylar underestimated Peter and company, that's why he didn't just freeze Peter, then cut him apart. But, yeah, Sylar could've won if it was all-out.
Heh, while I would love to take the time to discuss a multitude of occurrences in the episode, I thought it would be fun to bring up any editing "errors" that anybody's noticed in the episode. I'll start it off
When Hiro teleports to Kirby Plaza and confronts Sylar, we first see him holding his sword by the handle and the blade is facing backwards. Then we see a bird's eye view of Sylar and Hiro and magically Hiro's sword is now facing forwards, and for the remainder of the scene. Hehe
Everyone expected Peter VS Sylar big fight which didnt happend....it was really lame type...
Wonder why Peter should be punching Sylar when he could do more than that? when the first time Peter met Sylar n Sylar had this suprized lookd on his face seeing Peter's ability made me "wow" n jump on it to say, "there u go Peter, show him who had more power!!"
Was expecting so much like it was shown in episode "five years gone" when Peter & sylar goes really in cool battle....
Bt nthing happend....again...show was gr8 to watch....i somehow liked Nathan n disliked the way he was changing his mind for politics bt seeing him back to save Peter made me like him again
Alright, final words, guys, gals whoever felt unsatisfication bcos of no battle between Peter N sylar, common guys if they'll fight or say like peter fight to sylar like a pro then he cud knock down sylar n season one wud be like end of story for sylar.....
And our dear sylar is so good villan tht ppl wud love to see him back n see how peter learns how to control his abilities....this way the writer actually trying to say to wait.........there're lot more to see in next season.....the actual battal is nt yet started.......
Heh, while I would love to take the time to discuss a multitude of occurrences in the episode, I thought it would be fun to bring up any editing "errors" that anybody's noticed in the episode. I'll start it off Wink
When Hiro teleports to Kirby Plaza and confronts Sylar, we first see him holding his sword by the handle and the blade is facing backwards. Then we see a bird's eye view of Sylar and Hiro and magically Hiro's sword is now facing forwards, and for the remainder of the scene. Hehe
In the end we see Bennet's right arm in a sling, presumably broken, which is coincidentally the same arm he tried to shoot Peter with earlier before Claire took the gun away from him. Good shot indeed.
Edit: Btw, I tried looking at the Sylar's eyes frame by frame after he sends Hiro flying, there seems to be this really old guy that we haven't seen before in his visions, could someone capture the frames? My com keeps hanging when I try to do it. I'd guess that he's having a flashback of all the people he's killed, saw Charlie there.
Edit again: This happens 37:26 into the episode. I suppose that would resolve the issue of how Charlie died, and of how many powers Sylar has acquired along the way.
I'm firmly in the Hiro stopped time to stab Sylar camp.
I watched it about 10 times and taking into account the minimal movement of actors pretending to be frozen, Sylar doesn't move after he says "You!" .
He is Time stopped.
Hiro approaches
Stabs
Says Yatta (Badness style)
Then releases the Time stop as he withdraws the sword
Sylar GASPS!
I'd be open for a time slowed vs time stopped.. but it's really doesn't make a difference in the scenario.
i am too disappointed with the episode. all my reasons have previously been posted, so no need to re-iterate.
i still don't know about Hiro stopping time... as people have posted before, you see Matt coming out of nowhere and Sylar having time to turn around and stopping the bullets, yet Hiro teleports, calls out to him and he replies with "YOU" then Hiro launches... if they meant for Hiro to stop/slow time they didn't make it obvious, unlike previous times...
About Sylar having help... The haitian? unlikely, he seemed to be more about the Petrelli's than with Linderman, with whom we haven't seen much of an association since he "fled" taking Claire w/ him. I know this is far-fetched but what about if Candice helped? Again, with all the people who are walking around, EMTs, cops, etc, for nobody to notice Sylar dragging himself or being dragged or the trail of blood? again, it seems somewhat unlikely as there isn't an obvious link between Sylar and Candice, but it sure would clear up the scenario.
For all we know, he may have not had any help... the trail of blood leads to the sewer, yet the metal cover to the sewer is covere in blood. if somebody dragged him there, they really didn't have to get blood in their hands... of course, there's the point that Sylar didn't have to use his hands to lift it up, rather than using TK, but you can argue he was weak from the blood-loss.
if they meant for Hiro to stop/slow time they didn't make it obvious, unlike previous times...
Thing is --- you may have noticed in this episode that Hiro dances through time and space almost effortlessly now. Confront Sylar with Ando in the loft... and zoom - tag Ando - zoom... without narry a scrunched up brow.
I think its an indication of his comfort level with his ability.
While he was getting TKd by Sylar he did a bit more concentrating but realize two things... 1) he isn't as in control as he was when he surprised Sylar and 2) the trip he made was far more extreme.
I don't know if this is relevant, but I am struck by the fact that the vast majority of people who have expressed extreme dissatisfaction with the season finale are "sometimes" posters (less than 20 posts). Don't know what that means...
Personally, I thought the episode was great. And for the record, I think that if they HAD shown the SUPER BATTLE that the naysayers here wanted to see, then it would have HURT the story line.
We see this all the time in other media - X men movies, Fantastic 4 movie, Batman films - the directors keep thinking it's about the special effects, and focus on it so much that they forgot it's about the story!
I don't know what everyone else saw in the last minutes of the season finale, but what I saw was a young Peter Petrelli, barely in control of his powers, up against an overly confident and murderous Sylar, who has no idea that the other people in the plaza are super-powered like him. I saw Sylar have the hell surprised out of him when Niki whacked him w/ her super strength, and then have Peter do the same. I saw Claire, a young 16 y/o who has NEVER killed anyone being asked to pull a trigger against someone that she loves ( I don't care that she knows he can't die...she's still a kid who is being asked to bear an awful lot of responsibility). I saw Peter terrified that he could barely keep the "bomb" in check, and too scared (probably) to use his other powers to fly away. I saw a brother redeem himself in front of his daughter and his brother.
In other words, I saw a great STORY, which is what this whole thing is supposed to be about! If you want a great "battle" then go watch the scenes in X-3, and ask yourself, how moved were you? Did the battle scene make you care about the characters more? Or was it just yet another bunch of explosions and light shows that in the end don't add up to much?
first of all, EVERYONE i think has posted in here, those of us that have made many many many posts such as mods, popkorn hercules, me, others...
then there are new fans that have joined making posts...so im disregarding that "sometimes posters" thing
next..claire hasnt killed anyone? dont you remember her face/acting when she put the peddle to the metal to kill that one guy.. in the car? yea..he tried to rape her, basically killed her etc...BUT SHE DID IT WITHOUT EVEN CARING...she WANTED him dead
so dont tell me lil ol claire was THAT freaked with shooting peter...she had the ENTIRE DAY to think about it....the entirrrre day= "ok, if peter begins to go BOOM, i have to shoot him" i think it was BS etc
if you rewatch the eps (like i have many many many times) sylar has alotttttttttttttttttttttttt of time to do ANYTHING to hiro when he runs at him (time is not slowed, stopped or ANYTHING)
at first i was like "well, maybe time slowed down" NOPE! doesnt happen....btw earlier in the eps sylar WANTED hiro to use more than teleportation (so he could figure out how it worked, thus it wouldnt work on him anymore) he goes "FREEZE TIME HIRO!" (when he's holding ando with TK)
its been posted lots but sylar= figures out how u tricked him, and it doesnt work twice...the room that surrpesses powers, eden's ability, the drugs mohinder used, theres been other times im sure...but i dont want to go back and find them
nikki jumping into the baTTle= just plain stupid...the explanations i've read are soooo funny "mohinder told her to help!" is just sooo ridiculous...all she cared about was micah and dl...with them in her arms, and dl bleeding, she just runs to help peter (SHE DOESNT EVEN KNOW WHO SYLAR IS!)
infact..besides her family, shes met linderman, matt, and ando...thats it right!?!? that part ticked me off alot...
hiro running at sylar..cool part, but rewatch it over and over..it gets more ridiculous each time (oh btw, make sure u watch sylar's reaction time when he stops matt's bullets, he's like...NOT EVEN FACING MATT!)
I don't think the number of postings reflects much WEM. I just came across this site a couple of weeks ago, it doesn't mean people with less postings hadn't faithfully and anxiously awaited for this finale any less...
that aside... I can tell you i was equally anxious about X-3 just to also be slightly disappointed as well, so a great battle doesn't necessarily equate with overall viewer satisfaction... either way, everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion...
I can see your point about confident Sylar vs an overwhelmed Peter. yet, Peter had no trouble mastering invisibility and precognition, regeneration is innate i guess. it's kinda difficult to understand him not mastering other powers. but God knows that if any of us was in Peter's situation we'd also be pretty messed up trying to sort things out...
nonetheless, a story in which "Save the cheerleader, save the world" was so important, the relevance of having a 16y/o as the only one who could perform a task that she never fulfilled is weak... a story where so much attention was given to Claire as the only one who could shoot Peter, while you have a Plaza full of people with superpowers? Noah (HRG) could've taken a shot with his left hand or he could've given the gun to Mohinder or Nikki
i agree that it's not just great special effects, that the storyline is also important. personally i was always curious how Nikki's plot would play out and how she'd join the battle against Sylar... "What is this? two guys fighting? i think i'm gonna punch THIS one!" no link, no story there (BTW, personally, and contrary to what many people have posted, I thought it WAS cool that NIkki got the superstrength without having to "switch" to Jessica-mode)
Again, I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it all plays out in the end... well in the beginning i guess (of the 2nd season)
The error is thinking Claire's roll is to shoot Peter.
not right at all
Claire's roll was to humanize Nathan. Nathan only changed his course due to Claire's entrance to his life and her affect on him. Which would never have happened if she were killed in TX.
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