-True we don't know that Sylar was looking for Candice. We have nothing to suggest whether or not He may have painted something that would clue him in on Candice's abilities or location. There's also the possibility he could have gotten inside information about Candice, as she clearly is the missing piece to Sylar's puzzle to gaining the power he desires. I forget what he said about Candice in 5 years gone, but we know he gets candice in that timeline. As for candice not being in a position for Sylar to find her, obviously if he knows where she's at, he can find her. She did get knocked unconscious, but one flaw with her being unconscious is that she did not revert to the true form that she supposedly should have reverted back to. This actually could add more evidence to my theory, perhaps Sylar had already gotten to Candice, and was pretending to be her. He couldn't just leave a dead Candice on the floor with Michah around. I'm sure they would have mentioned a dead body with their brains removed to Noah or anyone else who would know Sylar's tricks, and they'd be on the look out using Molly for Sylar.
I think your theory is getting more farfetched as you try to explain the problems it creates. If Sylar had already gotten to Candice, he hasn't had any problem with leaving other bodies around - for instance Ted's and the policemen that were transporting him. Even if he was still there posing as Candice when Nikki got there, then: 1) When Nikki knocked him out, why wouldn't the unconscious form now be his instead of Candice's? Or 2) If his being unconscious was all part of the illusion, he must have realized from the power of Nikki's punch that she had super strength. Why not kill her and take her power? Also, if he found Candice guarding Micah, even if he didn't know specifically about Micah he must have suspected there was some reason she was guarding him. Knowing Sylar's character, why not kill Micah at that point and see if he got another power?
Watchmaker's Son wrote:
-We really don't know how far the illusion's reach goes or how many people are effected. in 5 years gone, obviously no one(or very few people) suspected Sylar of being Nathan, and he had to of had numerous appearances at large gatherings with people hundreds of yards away from him, and he had to appear in front of millions on television. the illusion must have worked on everyone, so I don't see why a few miles would effect it. and we know Sylar can use several powers at once, unlike Peter.
I think there must be some limit to the reach of the power of illusion. For instance, if the power includes the ability to affect the image projected into a camera itself, that would make more sense than Sylar/Nathan having to influence the minds of the millions of people watching on tv. (Even if he could control the minds of all the people watching live, what about people who saw his image on a taped delay? He'd have to literally continuously control billions of people's minds every moment as various people watched CNN or FoxNews or saw his picture on the front page of newspapers all over the world. Could he still do this even at times when he was ASLEEP and people in other parts of the world were watching the news? Personally I think this was another plot hole in the "5 years" episode that they didn't expect the audience to delve into so much.)
Another thing - if the power of illusion is as great as you are suggesting, then why would Sylar leave any of the heroes alive in the final sequence? For instance, Instead of using telekinesis to push Hiro away, Sylar could just kill Hiro while Hiro and Peter were talking. Hiro wouldn't be able to stop him since he wouldn't even know where the attack was coming from. And if Sylar knew about Molly (as you suggested above in your Candice scenario by implying that Sylar knew they would use her to locate him), wouldn't he want to kill her and take her power?
Using your argument, I have an amendment to your scenario. You see, Sylar only projected the illusion that he and Peter flew off and exploded. In reality, he stayed there the whole time so that as soon as the scene ended, he killed everyone - Hiro, Claire, DL, Parkman, Molly, and the rest of them. Now all of them are dead, he has all of their powers, and next season there won't be anyone left to stop him from conquering the world. Next season they're going to rename the show, "Sylar the super hero!"
Or how about this scenario - once the show introduced Candice, a lot within the rest of the episodes are just illusions from her mind. Sylar never existed but Candice has been the one killing the others all along, and the scenes we see of her and Sylar separated are such that her illusionary power is so great she can project herself in one place while she projects as Sylar in another place.
But I don't really believe any of that. My point is that if someone really has a totally unlimited power of illusion, then it gets to the point where the audience can't tell what is real and what isn't. I just don't think that's where the show is headed.
Watchmaker's Son wrote:
Claire knowing the whereabouts of where Peter is tricky to explain. I can't recall anyone ever telling her the location of the explosion, I'll check my recordings though.
That, and why she didn't want to shoot Peter, which to me was the biggest plot hole of all in the finale.
Watchmaker's Son wrote:
I forgot about Mohinder/Sylar incident, the only sloppy writing I could remember off the top of my head had to due with Peter and his powers, but seeing as how he is an empath with the ability to learn and use any power he comes in contact with, I gave them some leeway on that character.
There have been a few other things too, like how Hiro seemed to learn from his father to be an expert swordsman in a few hours. I haven't been trying to exhaustively list all plot holes. I was just responding to your original comment to the effect that the writing in the finale couldn't have been as bad as everyone says since the rest of the show didn't have any plot holes. It's just that when plot holes happen in scenes that don't seem so important most people are more willing to look the other way, but I was hoping for better in the finale.
Watchmaker's Son wrote:
Either way, there are a lot of mistakes that need to be explained, my Sylar theory explains some of them away, and I think would be a pretty cool path to take for the show.
I agree that there are a lot of mistakes to be explained. Your theory explains some of them but opens the door to a whole new set of mistakes, some of which I have mentioned above. I think you need to face the fact that there are enough mistakes that it is just impossible to explain them all. It really is the writing.
I think your theory is getting more farfetched as you try to explain the problems it creates. If Sylar had already gotten to Candice, he hasn't had any problem with leaving other bodies around - for instance Ted's and the policemen that were transporting him. Even if he was still there posing as Candice when Nikki got there, then: 1) When Nikki knocked him out, why wouldn't the unconscious form now be his instead of Candice's? Or 2) If his being unconscious was all part of the illusion, he must have realized from the power of Nikki's punch that she had super strength. Why not kill her and take her power? Also, if he found Candice guarding Micah, even if he didn't know specifically about Micah he must have suspected there was some reason she was guarding him. Knowing Sylar's character, why not kill Micah at that point and see if he got another power?
Another thing - if the power of illusion is as great as you are suggesting, then why would Sylar leave any of the heroes alive in the final sequence? For instance, Instead of using telekinesis to push Hiro away, Sylar could just kill Hiro while Hiro and Peter were talking. Hiro wouldn't be able to stop him since he wouldn't even know where the attack was coming from. And if Sylar knew about Molly (as you suggested above in your Candice scenario by implying that Sylar knew they would use her to locate him), wouldn't he want to kill her and take her power?
The problem with leaving bodies around this time around is that both Noah and Parkman knew that Nikki and DL were in the building. If they don't show up, or if they find their bodies, people are going to wonder how Sylar got to them. and If they found Candice's body, then they would definitely be using Molly to find Sylar(I think you misunderstood me before, Sylar doesn't know about Molly, I never said he did. They'd use Molly to find him, her powers wouldn't be affected by illusion.)
I Don't know how great illusion is, but There needs to be a cap on the power, just like every other power on the show. I'm not writing a definitive list of what Sylar could or couldn't do with it if he possessed it at this point, since we don't know. The only thing I can speculate concerning what the illusion power can't do, is block off people's ability to see real people. I don't believe Candice has ever done that(although I've read she did it to simone at the apartment. Not remembering the episode I can't say if that was true or speculation.).
So if that's true there wouldn't be a way for Sylar to kill off the heroes without anyone knowing about it, since they'd see each other. As for coming at Hiro from all angles, it might work, but would Hiro need to know which one was real? Couldn't he just stop time and take them out one by one? or would there even be more than one, I mean, he stops time, wouldn't he be stopping the illusionary effect that was going on?
The problem with leaving bodies around this time around is that both Noah and Parkman knew that Nikki and DL were in the building. If they don't show up, or if they find their bodies, people are going to wonder how Sylar got to them. and If they found Candice's body, then they would definitely be using Molly to find Sylar(I think you misunderstood me before, Sylar doesn't know about Molly, I never said he did. They'd use Molly to find him, her powers wouldn't be affected by illusion.)
Okay, if I've got your scenario straight, Sylar knows that Candice, Noah, and Parkman are in the building (something that the audience is never told about) but he doesn't know about Molly. In any case, I don't see why Sylar would care if Noah and Parkman know that he's there. Sylar wouldn't have any reason to fear either of them, and he would welcome getting Parkman's mind reading ability. Your scenario still doesn't give Sylar any reason for wanting to conceal Candice's death.
Watchmaker's Son wrote:
I Don't know how great illusion is, but There needs to be a cap on the power, just like every other power on the show. I'm not writing a definitive list of what Sylar could or couldn't do with it if he possessed it at this point, since we don't know. The only thing I can speculate concerning what the illusion power can't do, is block off people's ability to see real people. I don't believe Candice has ever done that(although I've read she did it to simone at the apartment. Not remembering the episode I can't say if that was true or speculation.).
So if that's true there wouldn't be a way for Sylar to kill off the heroes without anyone knowing about it, since they'd see each other. As for coming at Hiro from all angles, it might work, but would Hiro need to know which one was real? Couldn't he just stop time and take them out one by one? or would there even be more than one, I mean, he stops time, wouldn't he be stopping the illusionary effect that was going on?
Well, Candice has certainly stopped people's ability to hear other real people, and if they can't hear them, which should they be able to see them? (Reference is that when Nikki found Candice, Nikki couldn't hear the real Micah calling to her until she knocked out Candice.)
Yes, Hiro could stop time and defeat Sylar, but I am talking about what is believable within the episode. The audience knows that Hiro is a changed man and has new confidence after spending time with his father, but Sylar doesn't know that. Sylar has little respect for Hiro but would still want his ability. So I can't believe Sylar, in the illusion scenario, would give up the chance to kill Hiro and get his power. Knowing Sylar's arrogance and quest for power, he would go for the kill.
I am still left with your scenario causing as many problems as it solves.
I might know how Claire knew where to find Peter and Sylar. Peter's drawings included Kirby Square with the big red staircase. He showed the sketchbook to Claire. There was one of Ted and Kirby Square and a lot of flames.
What I'm not sure about is whether there was any drawing showing the explosion happening there (I'm not sure if the drawing I just described counts) or showing Peter and Sylar there. If Peter and Claire knew that Peter and Sylar would end up in Kirby Square, they must have been trying to get to Sylar before he got there. Otherwise, if Peter and Claire knew Sylar would eventually get to Kirby Square, they could have just gone there and waited for him. Or they had no idea where to find Sylar, and they needed HRG to get the information from Molly, and Claire really shouldn't have known where to go.
I'll get a better look at the drawings sometime soon and get back to you.
Something that struck me as funny in Sylar's painting of Kirby Plaza was the backwards "R" in the word Kirby. What is Sylar, dyslexic, or Five Years Old?
Speaking of drawings that did OR did not come true, you know the one of Micah in the window, looking out as the flames of the explosion engulfed him? This scene DID HAPPEN. There was a scene were he was looking out of the high rise's window, but the only difference was there were no flames and no explosion.
I thought it was a subtle thing and very interesting, pointing to the differences created by the choices being made by the Heroes around Micah.
Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:47 am Post subject: ISSUE - REGENERATION
I've more or less read this topic through and I tend to agree with those who think the battle should have been way more climactic. There is one more issue which I haven't seen mentioned:
How come Peter could/would regenerate after his nuclear explosion? I mean, all right, I accept that his body is now infused with the regeneration ability, his DNA has changed and that makes such processes much faster than normal. But in a nuclear explosion his body (and pretty much everything around) is blasted to atoms! Not tissue, not cells, not even a single molecule can survive that. Hell, even a lot of atoms disintegrate into nucleus and electrons. So what exactly regenerates then?
And we know he would regenerate from "5 years gone" that he went boom and survived. That was one of the questions that troubled me after that episode and that's how I ended up at this forum
And I think I have had enough faith in the writers. I haven't started nitpicking when special abilities broke physical laws (Nathan's flying without any propulsion, to name one), and there were many instances. I just loved the show all season and was too immersed in a GREAT story to spoil the fun for myself, so I just accepted the world the writers created as it is. And mind you, physics is my trade, so I've exercised a lot of self-restraint
I think everyone's waiting for next season to weigh in on this one; we don't know how (or even if) he will survive. Though you bring up and excellent point from 5 Years Later, and I don't think anyone really expects him to die.
I never figured that regeneration was necessary for Peter to survive the explosion. Neither he nor Ted Sprague were affected by the heat or radiation they generated in previous episodes. Claire's mom also did not burn when she created fire. Nuclear explosion is of course a whole different category, but I could see the same rules applying.
So, while the show makes a complete hash of physics and biology, I figure that Peter's survival would at least be consistent with the rules that they set up. I only get annoyed when they break their own rules.
alright. there's one question i definitely have to ask.
After watching the last episode, do you have enough patience to watch the next season and risk another finale like this one?
Absolutely! This was one of the best seasons of TV Ive seen in years. You are being too hard no the Finale, I liked it, turned out something like I expected. Nathan had to be redeemed, Nikki HAD TO help out, now she IS involved in the other storyline.
Come on, I see a fight going on, some guy is pulls a parking meter to him with TK, bashes someone to the ground with it, is about to hit them again, and I have the power to rip it from his hands, I dont know who is fighting, I dont care what its about, One person is armed, another is unarmed, Im going to helpout the unarmed person.
Some of the Nathan Dialogue was over-cheesed (I think it was the actor) at the end there, but WTF else did you expect!
Peter was trying to control the bomb, but if you payed attention you noticed that even TED would loose control of the power if he was upset or injured, Peter is powerful, he was reeling it in but just couldnt handle it. I wondered why he didnt fly himself, but trying to control a nuclear explosion takes some concentration I presume.
Nathan isn't dead, they'll leave it for halfway through the first episode or the 2nd but he isnt going to be dead (IN all honesty the Actor is the only attractive man on the show to keep the older women interested) Physically Nathan can fly at least at the speed of sound, which if faster then terminal velocity, he could easily fly Peter to the stratusphere release him, fly down out of hte range of the explosion, turn back around and catch him on the way down.
[Nathan isn't dead, they'll leave it for halfway through the first episode or the 2nd but he isnt going to be dead (IN all honesty the Actor is the only attractive man on the show to keep the older women interested)
Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:07 am Post subject: Nathan's magic lugs!
I posted this on another thread earlier but this thread seems more appropriate.
Just watched the clip of the explosion again. Does anyone else think it's a little strange that Nathan heard Peter and Claire's conversation from behind a building, quite a distance away with air blasting past his ears? (he lands and says, "Yes there is, Claire. The future isn't written in stone." ). I dont recall him having super hearing lol...
Just seems a little sloppy for the climax of the season!
Maybe you're right, but what difference does it make if a nuclear explosion happens a few meters from your body or within your body...?
Anyway, "radiation" does not explode. Stuff explodes, and very specific stuff at that: uranium, plutonium and a few other elements. Yeah, that's trying to put too much reality in the show, I know. But like I said - as long as the suspense, the Story (with a capital S) is there, I don't care. It's just I feel the superb writing faltered a bit in the finale and this is when these logical flaws tend to catch my eye.
LMAO, Action!! That'd be a hell of a defense mechanism: when threatened, just blow yourself up. When the danger is past, you literally "pull yourself back together".
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