Here's a question... On the assumption that Charles IS the one who's worse than the boogeyman... his power, the fact that despite being dead, his power of clarivoyance (or however it is spelled) allows him to linger and still be around and communicate w/ people in dreams.. this power had been passed to Peter, hence all the prophetic dreams, right? ... wouldn't Molly also see Peter the same way? (or perhaps worse!?!?)
Hmmm, a good point Baylor. But maybe because Peter hasn't developed Charles' powers to the level Charles has, Peter isn't yet more terrifying than Sylar?
Secondly am i the only one who saw how to stop peter without nathan ying? Claire could have shot peter, stopping him from exploding and then he could of just regenerated. I dunno maybe the writers just hate nathan.
It don't think it would be that simple. When Ted was shot, though it wasn't a killing blow, he burned down the Bennet house and gave Claire a face lift. Peter could react like that if shot with Ted's power front and center.
I actually do think it would have been that simple.
Within the storyline of the episode, Peter's plan if he got into trouble was to have first Claire, then (when they got separated) Mr. Bennett ("I'll put you down myself") shoot and kill him to stop him from exploding. They weren't concerned about Peter's still being able to explode anyway. I believe the answer to your comment is that Ted was only wounded, whereas if he was killed his power wouldn't have survived his death.
But in the episode, Claire's concern about shooting Peter wasn't that he would still explode anyway, but that he wouldn't be able to regenerate. That was implied in several comments throughout the episode, including the finale scene where she's crying and says, "Tell me there is another way" [i.e. to stop Peter from exploding] as she is holding the gun just before Nathan showed up.
But what would make Claire think that Peter couldn't regenerate after being shot? Claire herself was shot and killed in the episode where Ted and Parkman broke into the Bennett's home, and she regenerated, spitting the bullet out of her mouth after Parkman had shot her in the face. She in fact had been eager to take the bullet instead of her mother, thinking to Parkman, "Shoot me, I can heal!" She had no doubt that she would regenerate, and in fact she did. Claire knows that Peter has the same healing power that she does, so why exactly doesn't she think he will likewise regenerate after being shot?
The only possible difference I can see from Claire's getting shot in the earlier episode is that, as has been noted as to why Peter didn't just fly away instead of needing Nathan to fly him, Peter is at that moment being overloaded by Ted's power, and supposedly he can't use any other power at the same time because of this. BUT that explanation doesn't satisfy me either. Remember, there is a time lag on regeneration - e.g. again referencing when Claire was shot, Parkman and her father had time to carry her upstairs before she regenerated. Since the characters in the episode think that Peter's being killed would stop Ted's power, then why, after a few seconds or minutes, wouldn't his healing power be restored so he could regenerate?
Consider also that all of them believe Peter will regenerate after he explodes. When Nathan, his mother, and Claire are in the office just before Claire jumps out the window, the mother says to Claire, "Peter will survive the explosion - you gave him that," referencing Peter's taking of Claire's power. Nathan and Claire do not dispute this. So again, why exactly do all the characters think Peter will regenerate if he dies from the overloading of Ted's power leading to his exploding, but they don't think he will regenerate if he dies from being shot while this same overloading is happening?
To me, this was a big plot hole that has no adequate explanation.
I, like others here, was disappointed with the whole finale scene. To me the above was the biggest plot hole, but there were others:
Peter was much more impotent against Sylar than he was the first time (when he at least used the telekinesis once to push Sylar against the wall), despite having had time to mentally prepare this time. Even after he recovers when Nikki hits Sylar, he still doesn't use the telekinesis but resorts to punching Sylar.
I think the audience was supposed to think Sylar allowed Hiro to stab him because he was so stunned that the "silly little man" (Sylar's earlier comment about Hiro) even showed up. But he had already fended off several others, including instantly reacting to the sound of Parkman's shots before they reach him; so allowing Hiro to run all the way up to him with the sword was just not very believable to me. I was expecting Hiro to stop time and then stab him, but if you watch closely it was evident that this was not the case.
One other tidbit - in the final sequence, Claire is holding the gun crying, saying, "Tell me there is another way", and Peter says, "There is no other way". Then Nathan flys in and says, "Yes there is, Claire". If you watch this sequence closely, you see that at the time Claire and Peter were speaking, Nathan was nowhere near them. Only after both their comments does he fly around a tall building and land. So how did he hear their comments to be able to reply so directly to their conversation? We are never told that he has super hearing in addition to his flying ability.
For the scene that the whole season has been building to, I was extremely disappointed by all the plot and dialog holes here and the overall lameness of the fight between Sylar and Peter. I hope the writers can do better in Season 2.
This has been a great thread. I just want to take a moment to summarize all the inconsistencies that people have posted:
1. Why didn't Claire shoot Peter when she knows he can regenerate?
2. Why didn't Nathan shoot Peter?
3. Why didn't Peter fly away himself?
4. Why didn't Nathan burn up when he flew off with Peter?
5. Why didn't Sylar, who can stop bullets, stop Hiro's charge?
6. Why did Nikki start hitting Sylar with a parking meter when she did not know him or Peter?
7. Why did Nikki stop hitting Sylar with a parking meter?
8. Why didn't Candace become her (allegedly) fat self when she was knocked out?
9. How did everyone (Claire, Nathan, etc.) know where to go for the big finale?
10. Why was the big Peter-Sylar battle so lame?
11. How did DL walk out of the building with a bullet in the gut?
12. Why did it take the guards so long to find Nikki, Parkman, and friends, etc.?
13. Why did Peter go nuclear at night when the event was shown during daytime in a previous episode?
14. Where the hell were all the New Yorkers? You can't find a spot that dead in Queens, let alone midtown.
That's a lot of inconsistencies for a one-hour episode, and there are a bunch more in the previous episodes. Individually, they might be ignored or explained away; together they strongly suggest sloppy writing. Now I give the writers and directors a lot of credit. They put together this amazing show, and it was great all season, but ever since the first ridiculous Peter-Sylar battle, the writing has gotten sloppier and sloppier.
Producer/director Greg Beeman had a telling aside in his blog. Discussing Hiro's sword training session with dad in episode 22, he writes:
“I remember the only scene that worried me was the one where Kaito trains Hiro to be a swordsman. I was worried that it would seem foolish that Hiro learned so much in just a few hours. Nobody else was worried about this; they told me that as long as it came of magical it would be fine.”
The bit about "as long as it came of magical", whatever that means, seems to me to be the root of the problem. It implies that the audience will swallow whatever they serve up to us, that writing a show about magic frees you from the constraints of plot consistency. And judging by the number of apologists in this thread, maybe they're right about the audience. But there are clearly plenty of Heroes lovers like me, who are extremely disappointed with the writing lately. I only hope that the writers and directors read great forums like this one and get the message in time for next season.
FYI, I've started my own forum, explicitly to discuss plot inconsistencies in the last few episodes: www.heroesdefects.com.
I'm with you, HD, and I think Tim Kring is, too. In the CBR interview w/him about the finale, he complained that they had sort of written themselves into a corner. There was just too much to be resolved in too short a time. On the one hand, yes, we deserved some answers/resolutions in the finale; on the other hand, those like us would have been willing to wait for answers that were played out/written better. Maybe we should send them our resumes.
Thanks for the link, Jormengrund. The Kring comment was so-so. He writes:
The writing of this particular episode was extremely difficult because in some ways, for me it was more like taking dictation than writing an episode of television. Everything was so slotted in. You were dragging so much story behind you that you had very little wiggle room as to what people could say and how they could say it and what their attitudes were. It was all pre-determined.
I disagree with stonegroove007 in that I'm sure that there was too much pressure to have the bomb happen in the finale. I don't think that there was any chance of pushing into next season, although I do agree that I would have preferred that they take more time to do it right. That said, I don't think that Kring's comment is a good excuse for the plot holes. There are small things that they could have done to make it better, for instance by getting rid of Claire's gun, as I suggested in an earlier post.
The link that you sent was actually to an audience Q&A with writers/producers Joe Pokaski and Aron Coleite, and I found it more interesting than the Kring interview. They do address why Peter couldn't fly:
Peter even says, “I can’t stop it. I can’t do anything.” Peter was helpless. There were two options. Kill Peter. Or Nathan could fly him away and try to save them all. Now, if Peter or Nathan survived and how – remains to be seen.
Ultimately unsatisfying though because it's not clear why Peter wouldn't be able to regenerate when the bullet was removed from his head or why it would be any better for Peter to blow up in the stratosphere than to take a bullet. Either way, Nathan's grand sacrifice is pointless.
They also address why unconsious Candice wasn't fat:
OR – she was still barely conscious – OR – her subconscious so strongly desired to be thin that she was able to maintain that form – OR – people might be over thinking this.
Allow, let me paraphrase, "It doesn't matter". This comment gets directly to the point that I was making earlier. The writers just don't care and are disdainful of people who do. The Candice question is only one of many inconsistencies. When your most loyal viewers are saying that the finale was really disappointing, dismissing those concerns by saying that "people are over thinking this", is arrogant bullsh-t.
Anyway, one last question they addressed, the lame fight scene. A bit cryptic, but it sort of sounds like an apology:
To stay true to the show, we wanted to make sure everything rested on character, and that all the choices made, finale or not, seemed true to our characters. Claire jumping out the window. Niki stepping in to help Peter’s fight with Sylar, Hiro’s fight with and then stabbing of Sylar, and of course, the final moment with Nathan. No matter what we put forward, we suspect it may have fallen short of the high expectations – but for the people who thought we could have leaned into the action a little bit more, we hope to make it up in spades when we get back.
I think there actually may be a smoking gun that reveals what will happen next year and puts into perspective the events that occurred during the season finale. Proceed with caution if you don't want any possibility of a major Heroes plot being spoiled.
During the Final segment after Sylar is defeated, Claire is struggling with the thought of killing Peter, and the following conversation takes place:
Peter:Do it. Do it! You're the only one, Claire.
Claire: Tell me theres another way, please.
Peter: Shoot me. There is no other way.
Nathan[Flys-In]: Yes there is, Claire.
And as we know, Nathan decides to make the biggest sacrifice, saving New York by flying Peter into the sky and exposing himself to deadly radiation and likely his death.
But did you notice something? how about the bolded portion of the conversation. NATHAN IS FLYING IN WHEN THE CONVERSATION IS TAKING PLACE! How could he have possibly of heard the conversation that was going on between Claire and Peter, they weren't exactly shouting loud enough for someone thousands of feet in the air to hear them. And that's where the smoking gun known as super hearing comes in, and who's holding that smoking gun but none other than everyone's favorite watchmaker.
Doing my best Monk impression... Here's what happened:
Remember what Molly said to Mohinder about Sylar when Mohinder asked if Sylar was on his way? She said that he was already there. You know who else was already there? Candice, who as we all know, has the power of illusion. Sylar had ample time to take her power, which means he could take any form he wanted. This is the power that sets the rest of Sylar's plan into motion.
The first form he takes is as Claire. A repentant Nathan flies to the scene where the exploding man is supposed to detonate, in hopes of finding his brother there. He finds Claire(or so he thinks) and goes with her to try and find Peter. The search doesn't last long, as he ends up getting his brains munched by Sylar because he let his guard down.
The second thing Sylar does, is use the illusionary power to pull the wool completely over everyone's eyes. Sylar gets stabbed and killed by Hiro, and everyone thinks that the dangerous psychopath has finally been defeated. But truthfully Sylar either used a clone, or illusioned that he was stabbed when he really had dodged the attack. he illusions his own death, so that no one expects the plot that he's putting in place is happening.
The next and final major form that Sylar takes is that of Nathan. He uses Nathan's flight power to get Peter right where he needs him to be: in the sky, all alone. Peter can't fight back since he's about to explode, and since no one can see what's happening in the sky, Sylar can munch on some more Petrelli Brains.
The bomb that goes off is Sylar using Ted's power. But all the heroes think it was Peter who exploded, and won't be suprised when they learn that Peter won't be returning.
The people of New York will want to know what the large explosion was in the sky that night, and this is when Sylar takes the form of a charred and disfigured Nathan, who tells the world what happened that day. The congressman will be applauded for his bravery, and pitied for the death of his brother. The world will grow to accept people with abilities, but Sylar(as Nathan) will stress that even the most peaceful of people can be dangerous if they have abilities, and point to Peter Petrelli as the ultimate example. Because of the sacrifices that the world thinks Nathan Petrelli has made, they will elect him into the presidency. They will follow his plan to "help" people with abilities, but as we all know there is no way to help them, Sylar will just be helping himself to the all-you-can-eat special at the brain buffet. Sylar will realize his mother's wish for him to be special, and be as close as he possibly can be to being able to taste the most delicious brains of them all: cheerleader brains. What they lack in quantity they make up for in flavor.
Of course, with new york being spared destruction, the heroes that died in New York will still be alive, unlike in the episode 5 years gone. Micah will be alive, meaning his manipulation of machines is still on the table and Nikki has access to Jessica's powers(never learned to control them in 5 years gone). Hiro won't become cynical because of Ando's death, and then there's the issue of the only man that Molly is afraid of trying to find. We didn't see him in 5 years gone, perhaps he too died in the explosion? or perhaps never had a reason to reveal himself.
Point is, even though Sylar gets in control, the events of 5 years gone aren't a certainty, who knows what can happen. the creative team working for Heroes could likely form endless outcomes for this scenario that didn't involve Sylar getting Indestructibility.
Oh, if you're not covinced that this may be what actually happens, here's some more evidence for my theory. take this conversation between Noah and Peter as they enter the scene where the exploding man is supposed to detonate. They're looking for Sylar.
Peter:Doesn't look like there are many places to hide, are you sure about this tracking system?
Noah: He's here, don't worry.
Peter: Alright, look, alright, then that means he's hiding in plain sight
When Peter says that last line, he's looking directly at Noah. he turns to face the same direction as Noah for just a split second, and Sylar sneaks up and taps Noah on the shoulder, tossing him into a wall. How could Peter have not seen him? the Sylar we know shouldn't be able to pull that off, but with the illusion ability or the ability to fly at the speed of sound, appearing in a place in a split second is very plausible.
Now, the evidence I pointed out could have just been mistakes made by the people producing Heroes, but those are some awfully odd mistakes for them to make, they haven't made those types of mistakes before. It all fits into place, and would be an outstanding story. This allows the actor who portrays Nathan to stay on the show for a while, while Zachary Quinto takes a brief leave from the series, as he is presumed dead. When the truth is finally revealed on the show, many fans will be shocked, and the show will point out these small details that many had overlooked during the season one finale. The fans that questioned the way the season ended the way it did, would be applauding the creative staff's decision if this is what really happens.
Now, the evidence I pointed out could have just been mistakes made by the people producing Heroes, but those are some awfully odd mistakes for them to make, they haven't made those types of mistakes before. It all fits into place, and would be an outstanding story. This allows the actor who portrays Nathan to stay on the show for a while, while Zachary Quinto takes a brief leave from the series, as he is presumed dead. When the truth is finally revealed on the show, many fans will be shocked, and the show will point out these small details that many had overlooked during the season one finale. The fans that questioned the way the season ended the way it did, would be applauding the creative staff's decision if this is what really happens.
I suppose next season will tell for sure, but I think it was writing mistakes. A few things to consider:
- There is no evidence that Sylar was looking for Candice. When Parkman went to Isaac's loft to look for Sylar, he saw the painting Sylar had just painted of him and Peter in the courtyard of the building. Since Sylar expected (from the painting) to find Peter in the courtyard, there is no reason he would have even gone into the building where Candice was. And it doesn't seem that Candice had time to get out of the building for Sylar to meet her outside; she was knocked out, and whereas Nikki and the others got out using the elevator (with Micah's help), even if she woke up she would have to take the stairs which would be a lot slower.
- In your scenario, Sylar (as Nathan) and Peter fly off, Sylar kills Peter, and then explodes. But immediately after the explosion, the screen flashes to the various heroes, including a shot of Sylar's dead body still on the pavement. I find it hard to believe that Sylar would be able to continue projecting the illusion of his dead body from so many miles away (after he flew off) and when he was occupied with a lot of other things like flying, killing Peter, and exploding.
- There are other plot mistakes which your scenario wouldn't explain. For instance, why didn't Claire think Peter would regenerate if she shot him? How did Claire even find the building since it didn't appear that she ever knew where her father and Peter were?
- Also, I don't think this was the first instance of sloppy writing - just the most blatant one since people were expecting so much from the finale. For instance, in the first Sylar / Peter fight, Mohindar knocks out Sylar with the chalkboard. But instead of killing him at that point (and he had already demonstrated he was willing to kill Sylar when he tried to shoot him earlier), he just leaves him there. It couldn't be that he was in too much of a hurry to get out before Sylar woke up, because he took the time to pick up Peter and carry him out - something that would have slowed him down.
Now, the evidence I pointed out could have just been mistakes made by the people producing Heroes, but those are some awfully odd mistakes for them to make, they haven't made those types of mistakes before. It all fits into place, and would be an outstanding story. This allows the actor who portrays Nathan to stay on the show for a while, while Zachary Quinto takes a brief leave from the series, as he is presumed dead. When the truth is finally revealed on the show, many fans will be shocked, and the show will point out these small details that many had overlooked during the season one finale. The fans that questioned the way the season ended the way it did, would be applauding the creative staff's decision if this is what really happens.
I suppose next season will tell for sure, but I think it was writing mistakes. A few things to consider:
- There is no evidence that Sylar was looking for Candice. When Parkman went to Isaac's loft to look for Sylar, he saw the painting Sylar had just painted of him and Peter in the courtyard of the building. Since Sylar expected (from the painting) to find Peter in the courtyard, there is no reason he would have even gone into the building where Candice was. And it doesn't seem that Candice had time to get out of the building for Sylar to meet her outside; she was knocked out, and whereas Nikki and the others got out using the elevator (with Micah's help), even if she woke up she would have to take the stairs which would be a lot slower.
- In your scenario, Sylar (as Nathan) and Peter fly off, Sylar kills Peter, and then explodes. But immediately after the explosion, the screen flashes to the various heroes, including a shot of Sylar's dead body still on the pavement. I find it hard to believe that Sylar would be able to continue projecting the illusion of his dead body from so many miles away (after he flew off) and when he was occupied with a lot of other things like flying, killing Peter, and exploding.
- There are other plot mistakes which your scenario wouldn't explain. For instance, why didn't Claire think Peter would regenerate if she shot him? How did Claire even find the building since it didn't appear that she ever knew where her father and Peter were?
- Also, I don't think this was the first instance of sloppy writing - just the most blatant one since people were expecting so much from the finale. For instance, in the first Sylar / Peter fight, Mohindar knocks out Sylar with the chalkboard. But instead of killing him at that point (and he had already demonstrated he was willing to kill Sylar when he tried to shoot him earlier), he just leaves him there. It couldn't be that he was in too much of a hurry to get out before Sylar woke up, because he took the time to pick up Peter and carry him out - something that would have slowed him down.
-True we don't know that Sylar was looking for Candice. We have nothing to suggest whether or not He may have painted something that would clue him in on Candice's abilities or location. There's also the possibility he could have gotten inside information about Candice, as she clearly is the missing piece to Sylar's puzzle to gaining the power he desires. I forget what he said about Candice in 5 years gone, but we know he gets candice in that timeline. As for candice not being in a position for Sylar to find her, obviously if he knows where she's at, he can find her. She did get knocked unconscious, but one flaw with her being unconscious is that she did not revert to the true form that she supposedly should have reverted back to. This actually could add more evidence to my theory, perhaps Sylar had already gotten to Candice, and was pretending to be her. He couldn't just leave a dead Candice on the floor with Michah around. I'm sure they would have mentioned a dead body with their brains removed to Noah or anyone else who would know Sylar's tricks, and they'd be on the look out using Molly for Sylar.
-We really don't know how far the illusion's reach goes or how many people are effected. in 5 years gone, obviously no one(or very few people) suspected Sylar of being Nathan, and he had to of had numerous appearances at large gatherings with people hundreds of yards away from him, and he had to appear in front of millions on television. the illusion must have worked on everyone, so I don't see why a few miles would effect it. and we know Sylar can use several powers at once, unlike Peter.
Claire knowing the whereabouts of where Peter is tricky to explain. I can't recall anyone ever telling her the location of the explosion, I'll check my recordings though.
I forgot about Mohinder/Sylar incident, the only sloppy writing I could remember off the top of my head had to due with Peter and his powers, but seeing as how he is an empath with the ability to learn and use any power he comes in contact with, I gave them some leeway on that character.
Either way, there are a lot of mistakes that need to be explained, my Sylar theory explains some of them away, and I think would be a pretty cool path to take for the show.
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